yesterday at 6:26 PM
Somewhat related: did you know that you cannot disable GMail's GenAI features without disabling the traditional ML powered features, such as smart inbox, which predates LLMs? In this case, Google/Alphabet is conflating GenAI/LLMs with traditional machine learning, so you can't opt out of genai---which necessarily requires access to your data by the models---without deactivating the previous non-LLM powered features.
Which I get it, they indeed can use LLMs to improve the previous traditional ML pipeline. However I believe bundling these options together shouldn't be legal and I never expected Google to employ dark patterns like this. When I subscribed, these features were provided by traditional ML, perhaps some BERT-like encoder architecture at most, however now I cannot keep that previous functionality if I don't wish to grant LLMs access to my data.
yesterday at 7:47 PM
I did this (disabled AI features) and lost smart inbox and it honestly improved the experience: it made me realise how much rubbish I was subscribed to that I never read, so I unsubbed and blocked tons of stuff, and now my inbox is clear again
today at 4:53 PM
Same. I feel like I have control of my inbox again.
yesterday at 11:08 PM
Are you me? I went through the exact same steps a few months ago. My Google experience is 100% AI free now.
today at 9:14 AM
What was the clean up process?
yesterday at 9:42 PM
I should try that, i can't ever predict what ends up in some promotions folder or not ... it feels arbitrary.
yesterday at 10:10 PM
Cleaning up your email subscriptions is always a good decision IMO.
today at 2:06 AM
Just did that too
yesterday at 6:40 PM
It is absurd. I disabled Gemini for my organization, and Google in return disables tab completion in gmail entirely. They are practically demanding I find an alternative at this point.
yesterday at 7:42 PM
So that's why search got broken lately.
I used to be able to search for parts of names. Or a word that is part of a word in a message. Doesn't work anymore. Only exact matches now, or you don't get anything.
yesterday at 8:04 PM
It is even worse if you commit the offense of searching for something with an unmatched quotation mark. (Like 1-1/2" for example). Zero results, every time. Makes searching for trades related information in my emails a pain.
yesterday at 9:31 PM
Thank you for posting this. I thought I was going insane, failing to find something I was 100% sure should be there.
Damn, truly we are the products.
yesterday at 8:20 PM
ANOTHER EXCELLENT EXAMPLE OF WHY THE METRIC SYSTEM IS SUPERIOR!!
yesterday at 8:46 PM
You are not wrong there!
today at 3:44 AM
Give your (preferably local) LLM-based agent read access to your email.
Theyāre pretty great at cross-referencing across multiple formats.
(oh, and most all pattern matching.)
today at 7:02 PM
For a complete noob, what tools would you suggest to use? I have a gaming Nvidia GPU with 10GB RAM.
yesterday at 9:26 PM
Huh? This is not the case for me at all, just tested. Not doubting your experience, but it's weird that such a fundamental aspect of search (not even targettable to anything) would differ from user to user.
yesterday at 9:55 PM
Just to clarify, we were discussing gmail search and not the main web search. I just tested again, if I search for 1-1/2" (with the quote mark) I get zero results.
This is google-for-business or whatever they call it now.
today at 1:15 AM
>> When I subscribed, these features were provided by traditional ML, perhaps some BERT-like encoder architecture at most, however now I cannot keep that previous functionality if I don't wish to grant LLMs access to my data.
Sorry for the sidetrack, but why is it so common to consider BERT something else than an LLM? It is one of the earliest LLMs so it's nowhere near the size of more recent ones, but even wikipedia classifies it as an LLM:
Bidirectional encoder representations from transformers (BERT)
Original author Google AI
Release October 31, 2018[1]
Type
Large language model
Transformer
Foundation model
License Apache 2.0
Website arxiv.org/abs/1810.04805
Repository github.com/google-research/bert
And in any case it's an autoregressively-trained Transformer, albeit encoder-only. If it's not an LLM, then what is it?
yesterday at 8:09 PM
BERT is an LLM. I don't see why Google needs to cater to increasingly fine parsing of politically acceptable vs. not ML workflows, because that is really what this is about.
yesterday at 8:30 PM
To me the distinction is in whether model trained on my data can return it almost verbatim. Any statistical model, even linear regression can expose some of my data and preferences, but the difference is whether they can compromise the data they've been trained.
And frankly I see the distinction in only number of model parameters vs number of people in cohort it was trained. So 50k-param model trained on 1b emails from 1 million people is ok, encoding/compression loses anything personal. But huge LLMs are closer to lossless compressors that can just spew all my passwords, prescriptions etc verbatim.
yesterday at 10:25 PM
thank you for the reply, it is a good grounding distinction and i will think more on this perspective.
yesterday at 9:50 PM
I know, I mentioned it because there's a category of models that I'd be okay with, but I can't exactly name it. I thought the difference lied in the encoder/decoder distinction. As a sibling comment mentioned, generative models do offer more privacy risks.
But it's not only that. Model size, for instance, also plays a role. Will modern BERT keep their lossy compression nature? Or could there be a privacy risk as well?
Thus, what are the characteristics of privacy-aware models? So far: discriminative vs. generative, model size, and lossy transforms (related to size). Perhaps looking at pre-2020 models could help to narrow other necessary attributes.
yesterday at 10:27 PM
Model size, definitely. Not so sure about the discriminative vs. generative distinction (technically 'generative' models are discriminators as well) - I suspect the data is extractable if you have access to the weights, although easier to extract from inferencing in a decoder model.
My guess is that the pairing of all of these things is due to the fact that Google has likely consolidated everything under the same style of decoder model.
yesterday at 10:53 PM
yesterday at 10:16 PM
TIL you can turn off ai features!
for those who didn't know how to do it:
1. https://mail.google.com/mail/u/0/#settings/general
2. under "Smart features:", toggle off "Turn on smart features in Gmail, Chat, and Meet"
today at 2:49 PM
its funny how you are never asked whether you want to enable them, they just do it secretly and you have to investigate how to disable it
today at 2:58 PM
Services want you to behave a certain way. You can only work around them for so long. The solution is to abstain or acquiesce.
today at 12:36 PM
It's more likely that they replaced the traditional ML models with generative AI ones so there's not really a way to go back and disable only one part so to speak.
yesterday at 8:27 PM
You need to do this to continue to use Google Assistant for some features as well! One day I try to set a timer on my phone, which is basically all I use the voice features for, and it forced me into Gemini AND data collection. It's truly maddening.
yesterday at 11:31 PM
Indeed, instead of simple speech recognition and word parsing to set a timer, now they throw it into slower AI.
I can still use Google Assistant, I did get an email from Google that they're going to kill it off (the assassination date is 2 months ago, IIRC), but so far Google Assistant still works for me, although it's getting dumber, it failed today when I asked it for "local time in (some city)".
Google's Android Studio Editor has nice enough AI integration, I managed to start vibe-coding a replacement Assistant, that uses on-device speech-to-text, and then I had fun human-coding a parser to understand "set alarm for 8:00" (e.g. if it's 7PM, I want the alarm for 8PM, if it's 10 PM I want it for the next day of course).
yesterday at 9:15 PM
>Google/Alphabet is conflating GenAI/LLMs with traditional machine learning
I see people try so hard to make this distinction when it really doesn't exist. Transformers are only a little different than long short-term-memory architecture (parallelized, with attention mechanism and no recurrance).
What is the point at which is departed from tradition machine learning? Seems more like people retrofitting a moral decision to not like LLMs and trying to dress it up as a technical distinction.
yesterday at 9:16 PM
determinism
yesterday at 9:21 PM
This is not inherently a property of either LLMs or "classical" ML.
yesterday at 10:11 PM
I can run a linear regression and get the same result every time or I can go to chat.com and get A/B tested upon. yes these are cherry picked examples. they're also the ones that apply to me personally. for a higher level version of this argument please see my response to the other responder.
yesterday at 10:58 PM
linear regression on commodity hardware is generally not going to be truly deterministic delta implementation details
yesterday at 9:19 PM
Transformers are plenty deterministic. We just decide to run an rng against their output to get the final token in most cases.
yesterday at 10:35 PM
Non-associativeness of floating point arithmetic plays a major role as well.
yesterday at 9:54 PM
when concept A applies to concept B in practice, a lack of theoretical connection between A and B is basically irrelevant to me as a lay person. people don't seem to grasp this argument well here so I'll be very clear, yes you are entirely correct, concurrently there isn't much reason for me to care about correctness when my eyes and ears tell me something else
today at 3:00 AM
Glad they did this change. It forced me to make actual filters rather than relying on gmail to filter to broad categories. Much better in the long run. Also I finally unsubscribed from things I would let go into promos and social but never read.
yesterday at 9:40 PM
Why didn't you expect Google to employ dark patterns? They're pioneers of dark patterns in software. They've probably done more than any other company except Meta to spread and advance these techniques.
yesterday at 11:13 PM
We can still call out bad behaviour even if it's fully expected. The alternative is silent acquiescence.
yesterday at 11:30 PM
It might seem simple in the current moment to separate the two, but all of these features are going to start merging. Google isn't going to maintain "old" ML features.
yesterday at 9:34 PM
I just abandoned my 22yo gmail account. I feel liberated and empowered!
I found all of the new LLM features to be utterly pointless and incredibly annoying, but the last straw was when my account was abruptly locked recently. For a week I couldn't access mail, maps, photos, digital picture frames for my extended family all went dark, my personal blog ... all shut down with no reason given. No customer support available to contact to resolve google's mistake. A week later, it was suddenly unlocked again. Still no reason given.
Fuck google. You are not their customer; you are their product. Google doesn't care about you any more than Tyson cares about the chickens it sells.
today at 12:02 AM
You're not the first and you're lucky it got unlocked. Usually random Google account locks persist forever. It's good to move things away before it happens.
Google has zero customer support even for companies that pay them millions of dollars - their attitude is take it or leave it.
yesterday at 9:43 PM
I've also just deleted my personal account and plan to move my business account. I just refuse to deal with their BS. Agreed..extremely liberating!
yesterday at 7:52 PM
I'm just glad they haven't shoved AI down Google Tasks yet
yesterday at 11:32 PM
Introducing Google MeeSeeks!
yesterday at 10:35 PM
Don't remind the Googlers in the thread it exists! The only Google services unmolested by garbage are the Google services nobody remembers exists that still just like, live on the servers underneath everyone's attention. When you find some Google website with their 2010-style UI you know you've found one of the last remaining nuggets of gold.
today at 5:57 PM
yea.. I should have kept it shhhh. But if you are looking (GOOGLE): make swiping left and right delete and complete a Task :)
yesterday at 7:57 PM
On a similar note, I recently had to enable GenAI in my Photos app just to be able to search my photos, and the photo search is now worse than I remember it being before! I need to move off Google entirely for backups but I find the cross-device compatibility and convenience of the ecosystem really hard to give up. Lately, I've started using other LLM plans than Gemini just to have some of my personal details separate from the rest of Google, which has all my documents and email, etc.
I hope that enshitification calms down a bit whenever the dust has settled on frontier AI companies and we no longer have to force this into every product imaginable. Google used to be pretty good relative to the rest of the big ad tech companies (looking at Meta/Facebook with a scowl...) at giving opt-outs and settings to personalize privacy stuff. This has been a disappointing change to see
today at 2:53 PM
That's rough that you cant search for photos without having AI enabled. I would switch to Apple but its so hard to leave again and get your data out.
today at 3:42 AM
Turning all of their features off is the only way I achieved Inbox 0.
Your mileage may vary!
today at 2:03 AM
I blame the European regulations that drove the featureset. The problem with the legal department being the primary feature stakeholder is that usability will always be crap.
yesterday at 6:44 PM
They can enshittify their product as much as they want, it just makes the case for removing every piece of Google garbage out of my life and never using a single piece of software from them.
yesterday at 7:10 PM
> I believe bundling these options together shouldn't be legal
What could that law possibly look like? Do politicians get to decide on all other features corporations group together, or just ML features, and why?
You do know you can just not use gmail. I don't.
yesterday at 5:17 PM
I'm confused, so google made websites indirectly unusable with all the advertisement incentives and then the AI summary came that usually just summarizes some reddit posts and now they subtly and indirectly block universities from using their entire search engine because unis block the AI part of search? What incentive does google even have on presenting the ai summary?
Does anyone even understand the world currently? Its so absurd to me, why does it exist to begin with and why is this drama appearing?
yesterday at 5:28 PM
I'm guessing it's less about the AI in search and more about making sure kids are exposed to the larger Gemini ecosystem
yesterday at 5:53 PM
They want to make everyone cognitively dependent on AI so they can further insert themselves into our lives for profit. The younger they hook us the easier that will be.
yesterday at 6:48 PM
They also need the children's use of AI for behavioral training data so they can better capture that user base.
yesterday at 6:33 PM
yesterday at 10:45 PM
*dependant on the Gemini ecosystem.
yesterday at 6:22 PM
Not just universities. If it were universities it wouldn't be so bad since most students have their own laptop and can make their own decisions. This is a play to get AI in the hands of young kids. Most public K-12 schools use Google, so they either have to opt-in to AI and/or their 'helpful' educational chatbot, or not use search at all.
yesterday at 8:39 PM
Dons tinfoil hat
Have you noticed how many people already use AI to do their thinking for them. They just ask it what to think, what to do, for everything. They want that for as many people as possible. They donāt want people going outside of Google to other websites to decide what to think. Yes they will put ads in it eventually. But in the end they will also use it to influence what the population thinks.
We already have some leaders and politicians outsourcing their thinking in this way. It will make these companies incredibly powerful.
yesterday at 10:54 PM
Yes they will put ads in it eventually. But in the end they will also use it to influence what the population thinks.
The former is a subset of the latter.
yesterday at 9:16 PM
if you can go direct like that and influence peoples basic schema of thought, there is no further need for contemporarily structured ads.
as far as ads go, the razor cuts to the bone when you realize that microtargeted ad campaigns, are overly complex, and have folly. what you really want is to predict someones shopping list, rather than recommend items that were already purchased in gross quantity.
today at 2:19 PM
> Yes they will put ads in it eventually.
There are already ads in it, and also the chat stream is sold to companies which resell it to advertisers for targeting outside the chatbot.
yesterday at 5:35 PM
The AI will eventually incorporate ads.
yesterday at 5:51 PM
Or already is. Subtly recommending/promoting certain products over others seems reasonably likely.
yesterday at 6:14 PM
You should offer at least a shred of evidence when making accusations like this.
yesterday at 11:27 PM
Google is a company that is famous for its advertising business. It would be foolhardy to require proof that they are advertising. If they are not already doing it, it is highly highly likely that there are several teams working on it.
yesterday at 6:32 PM
Here's a shred of evidence for ya:
https://beomniscient.com/blog/the-9-best-llm-seo-agencies-fo...
yesterday at 8:40 PM
This is not different from standard SEO. You adjust the page to be more likely to select in the results. That's not the same thing as that LLM providers injecting explicit ads or steering results.
yesterday at 6:47 PM
Right now it's either ChatGPT ads or gaming search data to try and end up in AI overviews.
today at 7:40 AM
āā¦seems reasonably likely.ā
I donāt think the burden of proof for seeming reasonably likely is terribly high. That it sounds very much like something theyād do seems sufficient.
yesterday at 6:45 PM
Oh, I agree that is probably BS right now, but when the bias is hidden in the weights, youāre never going to find it.
Just wait for ā$1000/mo for a 10% chance your product is mentioned in the AI summary for an auto parts searchā.
yesterday at 8:22 PM
More-diffuse manipulation become possible too: The National Dairy Society or whatever can spend $ on generally boosting mentions that calcium is an essential mineral and that you can get it from certain drinkable sources.
yesterday at 9:05 PM
Baking ads right into the weights would be extra evil, so they will probably do it. But, also, it would take me probably 10 minutes to write a skill to, say, call an API to retrieve advertising instructions and incorporate them into the output.
yesterday at 9:31 PM
What is an alternative monetization method for Google Search if not that?
yesterday at 11:28 PM
They could innovate and let people buy unobtrusive ads triggered by keywords. Crazy, but it just might work.
today at 3:56 PM
Nah, the more obtrusive an ad is, the more profit the advertiser makes.
yesterday at 10:46 PM
A couple that I can think of are: banner ads, sponsored results, subscriptions
yesterday at 11:22 PM
Ok so the same old ads and subs. So as usual I expect the ads to be interwoven in the valid results inline with the last 20 years or so.
yesterday at 8:52 PM
It's not an accusation, but a very reasonable supposition.
yesterday at 6:34 PM
C'mon. It is almost like we haven't lived this in everything else (search, social, ...).
yesterday at 9:41 PM
In the 90s, when we used dial-up, I would set Google as my homepage because it was fast and ad-free.
yesterday at 7:26 PM
> What incentive does google even have on presenting the ai summary?
I have some guesses:
They can artificially inflate the number of users who use their AI by including everyone who uses their search engine.
It trains people to be increasingly dependent on whatever google tells them instead of checking and reading multiple sources, and verifying information for themselves.
They hope to let people pay them to manipulate what their AI returns for certain searches (either mentioning certain things/products or suppressing mention of them).
Google search is getting increasingly useless as the unending flood of ad-filled AI slop websites dominates the search results and people will abandon searching with Google if they can't find some way to provide people with the information they are looking for. (it's not going well so far https://arstechnica.com/google/2026/04/analysis-finds-google...)
yesterday at 7:59 PM
> They can artificially inflate the number of users who use their AI by including everyone who uses their search engine
Yup I could see that being plausible. Itās like Microsoft and Copilot. Project managers got to boast how they got AI āadoptionā numbers up just by shoving it into peopleās faces.
yesterday at 6:27 PM
Frankly this seems like a good decision to me.
Google's search is increasingly AI driven (as it should be, i do not want to click on reddit links and waste my time skimming through the 1000 comment threads), asking Google to maintain a non-AI search engine is like asking Tesla to come up with an ICE engine car right now. It is not happening.
Google Search I would expect will increasingly become more like Gemini and less like traditional search. Schools could certainly go to DuckDuckGo or other search engines that are free. (Google has shown that it does not care if they do as it sees it as a dying business.)
yesterday at 10:11 PM
That depends on whether the purpose of web search is to get answers or find references. Since students are still developing their reading and research skills, the latter goal is much more relevant in an educational setting. AI boosters have a vested interest in conditioning people to treat chatbot output as primary sources when they most certainly are not.
yesterday at 7:46 PM
And what, pray tell, will this search engine search?
If nobody is visiting anything on the internet, because every search engine response is an AI output, then where will any information for this AI output come from?
This paradox was clear from day one, pretty sure I posted on here about it years ago. AI search will kill the dataset that AI itself relies upon.
yesterday at 9:29 PM
You know what's replacing the open web and reddit? Conversations with AI models that were never posted to the open web.
That's exactly why they MUST have everyone opted in, even if they don't like it.
yesterday at 10:09 PM
Peer review is what made information on sites like Stack Overflow and reddit have value. One on one conversations with an LLM are not an equivalent and direct substitution.
today at 6:24 AM
Multiply those conversations by a thousand and you got some sort of ground truth.
It's a shame they will be siloed and get biased over time. I think AI labs will come up with ways to not-compete in certain areas too.
yesterday at 10:48 PM
The problem is that Google's AI search basically doesn't work. It routinely can't understand even simple prompts and is the only AI I've used that routinely hallucinates.
today at 3:57 PM
And this is good for academia?
yesterday at 6:47 PM
> asking Google to maintain a non-AI search engine is like
...is like asking your company to maintain its SQL database instead of shoving everything into a document the LLM reads and suggests edits to.
Even if you're using an LLM to talk to the user, there still needs to be some kind of deterministic search engine back there in order to do things well, or to answer any kind of question that involves information newer than X months ago.
yesterday at 6:59 PM
There needs to be retrieval, but ranking can be fully offloaded to LLMs and they would probably do better. Legacy search engines do both parts, and their ranking is highly gameable judging by how SEOed they are.
yesterday at 7:14 PM
> ranking can be fully offloaded to LLMs
If someone searches for "mexican food" you require ranking anyway because you aren't going to load those ten bazillion hits into the LLM first.
yesterday at 7:41 PM
Spoiler: regular search ranking doesn't see very many results, either. I mean, have you seen the results for a crowded query like this? They are trash.
yesterday at 9:11 PM
yesterday at 9:14 PM
Yeah yeah, search is hard and gets adversarial, we already knew that.
What's missing here is your imagined alternative: What exactly are trying to propose where Google can ditch having a search engine, and why do you believe it work well instead of badly?
today at 6:27 AM
Well, for some factual queries it can just know the answer inherently. Plus you can provide it all the curated data feeds that currently back first party results. But most of all, if there's no simple ranking signals to game, then SEO gets a lot harder.
yesterday at 8:28 PM
Desperation to keep the fad alive a little longer? Maybe Google is secretly a huge fan of Kagi and wants to force Universities in that direction?
yesterday at 9:26 PM
Kagi depends on Google's search API still. So they get paid either way, I guess.
I do sort of wonder how much longer Googles search API will even be a thing. They clearly have no interest in running a search engine anymore and are becoming actively hostile to the open web.
yesterday at 10:49 PM
Kagi uses Google API as one among a number of sources, I donāt know if itās a particularly vital one though. Personally whether itās Kagi or something else I think the future of search will be tiered:
Free, terrible ad-riddled and essentially broken
Paid, you are the customer not the product.
yesterday at 10:05 PM
Annoyingly though, Reddit which apparently has some fucking stupid exclusivity agreement, results, are still a lot of the time found on Google, not even with Kagi using Google's API
yesterday at 10:25 PM
And then you click and it takes you to a page where all relevant comments are pre-hidden, and soon you'll have to log in to (not) see it...
today at 12:23 AM
With the quality of content on Reddit in recent years, I think you are better off not opening the site. The good ol' days where "some topic" +reddit have been long gone.
today at 3:14 PM
It's the most centralized decentralized thing. "Most real place on the internet"? Please. The site bans you. Subreddit mods ban you. Subreddit mods collude/have the same ones per subreddit
There was a period of time where even posting in r/lockdownskepticism would get you banned from (I'm making this up, I don't have the list. the point is it's like all the mainstream subs) r/funny r/pics etc etc
today at 7:42 AM
Turning off Reddit sounds like a featureā¦especially as itās being overrun with āSEO specialistsā hocking their shitty, meaningless wares.
yesterday at 5:53 PM
I think they're just asserting control. They want to control what you see on your devices. They own the worlds largest search engine, and they think they get to pick what's on it.
yesterday at 8:07 PM
World makes complete sense. Its just ran by properly fucked up sociopaths who can't ever reach happiness so they hyperfocus on competitive zero sum games with short ego boosts and with no regard for anybody else, future of their kids or anything larger. They think their legacy like that is something that will be admired for generations because they got a lot of money and who cares how they got it, right.
Most will end up in deep regrets, ie how jobs regretted being an asocial dick and all above to his own family before dying (thats the better outcome, many simply see them as stars of their show till last moments, like potus for example). Its not some secret cabal, these people if smart naturally bubble to top of social and financial hierarchies.
It used to be much less visible, some sort of on-surface decency momentum and shit behind the curtains, now everything is out in the open for whole civilization to see instantly and its pretty tiring and nauseating.
If you don't get it its fine, it means you are a normal human being, probably well balanced. Folks like that abhor such people personally, be it c-suites of corporations or politicians or just a pos colleague.
yesterday at 6:06 PM
I know theyāre not marketing to schools yet, but kagi.com is available for libraries. I expect theyāll try to break into the school market eventually.
Itās a good time to break free from Google and try something else. Iāve been using kagi for a couple years and I havenāt looked back.
Not a shill.. I just like the service.
yesterday at 4:06 PM
As usual, the truth is a little less clickbaity. It's just opt-in:
https://blog.google/products-and-platforms/products/educatio...
> We believe schools should have control over AI in their classrooms and in providing administrators with controls to help them manage their approach. After listening to schools, teachers, leading researchers, and policymakers, we are now updating our approach to controls for Gemini, Gemini Notebook, Gemini in Classroom, and Google Search. Access to these products will be entirely off for K-12 student accounts until school administrators explicitly turn them on.
yesterday at 4:14 PM
Google blog says search will be off by default, alongside Gemini stuff.
And NYT says they would only be able to turn search on if they enable all of the Gemini stuff. That is not mentioned explicitly on google's blog. So not _that_ clickbaity?
yesterday at 4:15 PM
> ā¦ and Google Search. Access to these products will be entirely off for K-12 student accounts until school administrators explicitly turn them on.
So yeah the blog post says Google Search itself will be entirely off until being turned on. Thereās nothing in this blog post to indicate whether Google Search can be turned on without also turning on Gemini. Although I hate the NYT, the NYT is quoting someone from Google saying there wonāt be separate controls for Gemini and Google Search.
yesterday at 11:49 PM
[dead]
yesterday at 4:13 PM
From the article, Google AI is deeply integrated with Google Search. So the article is correct - turning off one turns off the other.
From a privacy perspective, having all of this off by default is sensible. But only offering a basic product like Search if you opt into AI (when search as a capability does not need AI to function) - is newsworthy.
yesterday at 4:54 PM
> when search as a capability does not need AI to function
That means a far less capable search engine. Note that Google search has been AI-powered since before AI became a thing; it's now just more advanced, and particularly, explicitly publicized.
yesterday at 10:53 PM
How the sausage is made is irrelevant when the goal is to get students to research primary sources of which Google AI summaries cannot be.
today at 12:21 AM
I remember a time when Wikipedia wasn't allowed as a source. Few years later, no problem.
today at 1:03 AM
I've never seen Wikipedia accepted as a source. Mostly I've seen the shift to recommending people look at Wikipedia's citations as sources.
today at 1:46 AM
I've seen this OK'd in college, though the number of allowed Wikipedia citations was capped.
yesterday at 4:08 PM
Does Google tie Gemini access for schools to their ability to train on the data and use it for ads and measurement like they have done to Android if you want to do anything halfway useful you used to do with Assistant before they killed it?
yesterday at 4:08 PM
> A.I. features are now a standard part of Googleās commercially available search engine. āSearch and A.I. are deeply integrated,ā said Chris Phillips, vice president for education at Google. If a school has banned A.I., he added, students āwill not have access to search, and theyāll see a message from their school that indicates itās not available.ā
C'mon, it's right in the article.
The school can control AI on/off. Off means no search too.
yesterday at 4:47 PM
Well their search engine is explicitly AI-driven; no AI, no search. Like you can't have juice that doesn't contain water.
yesterday at 4:49 PM
> Like you can't have juice that doesn't contain water.
This particular bit of juice didn't have the "AI summaries" ingredient for 93% of its existence.
Schools invested enormously in Google Classroom and Google for Education, and now the deal's changing. Not for the benefit of students.
yesterday at 5:20 PM
The water supply got an update. Reservoir instead of wells. There may be a difference in taste but you'll get used to it. Or learn to dig a well.
yesterday at 5:24 PM
That's more honest, but quite the goalpost move.
The local population is probably allowed to complain that you built the reservoir with toxic waste, too, or that you filled the old well with construction debris.
yesterday at 7:13 PM
It's not a goalpost move though, as there was never a guarantee to remain on well water.
But anyway I personally would find someone offering well water if I don't like the reservoir. And I've been using DuckDuckGo exclusively for search since they first appeared, so I've never had to deal with what Google's doing. I know the reservoir exists, but I've never drank from it.
yesterday at 10:56 PM
> It's not a goalpost move though, as there was never a guarantee to remain on well water.
That sounds like an argument to never depend on Google for anything ever again under any circumstance short of severe punitive legislative action.
today at 12:29 AM
It really doesn't make sense to use a service and expect that service to not ever change (or be replaced), particularly when you're not the owner of said service. I love how HN is but I wouldn't blink if it changed tomorrow for example. Heck, there have been recent changes: there's now a filter system for LLM-generated content, for one.
today at 1:02 AM
It really doesn't make sense for businessowners to see themselves as independent from the society they operate in.
Especially in Google's case where they've invested so much into remaking how society works worldwide. To expect people to simply accept anything and everything Google wants to do just because they're a private business regardless of how many billions of people their actions affect?
Lunacy.
today at 1:58 AM
How you want businesses to work and how they actually work are different things. By default, a business has no relations to society beyond beyond those facilitating financial transactions in such a way that said business makes a profit for its owner/stakeholders. Anything else is adopted strictly with the purpose of advancing that primary purpose, or is externally mandated via regulation, community pressure, etc. An entity that doesn't prioritize profit (given no external pressure) isn't a business.
today at 2:36 AM
How you want governments to work and how they actually work are different things.
How you want public perception to work and how it actually works are different things.
today at 7:45 AM
Itās got what plants crave.
today at 9:27 AM
> Well their search engine is explicitly AI-driven; no AI, no search.
By āAIā you mean machine learning e.g. RankBrain, correct? Schools are clearly not opposed to that. Their contention is with the LLM-generated āAI summaryā that sits on top of the ranked results.
Do you not understand those are two different things? Thatās my most charitable conclusion. The less charitable conclusion is you are intentionally conflating generative AI (LLMs) with all machine learning, which is not how the term āAIā is used in this article or Googleās own marketing.
yesterday at 4:10 PM
the problem is that it's bundled.
you either get search + all the ai stuff, or you get none of it. you can't just opt-in to search alone.
(in other words, title is accurate. block ai = no search)
yesterday at 4:08 PM
yesterday at 6:35 PM
the truth is not what you think is the truth
Search is off; if you want it back on, you get Gemini summaries with it. you can't get Search _without_ Gemini
Scummy wording makes it looks like google is giving more control, but it's really the opposite.
yesterday at 4:51 PM
So, win-win and more traffic for Duck Duck Go?
That's how I read it nowadays, as Google search results are in a quality going down trend.
yesterday at 6:01 PM
The win would be if someone started to question why an institute would force Google products on its students in the first place.
yesterday at 5:28 PM
I donāt think that is so simple. Many schools have bought fully into the Google ecosystem, with Google Classroom, Chrombooks, etc. I used to tutor at my local high school, and for some reason traffic to Duck Duck Go was blocked, and I was forced to use Google search when tutoring my students.
yesterday at 7:00 PM
sounds like monopolistic practices
yesterday at 5:40 PM
yesterday at 5:10 PM
DDG is trying to be too much like Google now, with the Ai summaries and chat bot.
Actual search results are still bad. Seems to be a trend across most engines
yesterday at 5:17 PM
DDG has an entrypoint with AI features disabled at https://noai.duckduckgo.com/
yesterday at 5:31 PM
how long will that last and be given effort?
the direction they want to go is clear for me, similar to proton
yesterday at 8:04 PM
These are still a thing for people who don't like JavaScript, so I'd give them some credit.
And it's not like these don't cost anything to run and maintain. Quite the contrary: bots love to use them, and it screws with their ads-driven business model. And yet they are still keeping these around.
I think that "noai", too, will keep going for a long time.
yesterday at 11:16 PM
I appreciate that they do this, but their results are still trash. Even been having problems with Kagi lately.
yesterday at 9:08 PM
they are pushing their Ai across all their web assets, also their own browser, with popups and notifications
very google-y to me, or valley-y is probably more accurate, par for the course across so many products these days (in your face)
yesterday at 5:35 PM
No student is going to use that over the default.
yesterday at 5:51 PM
The point is that if a school wants to use DDG but not AI, DDG is going to happily oblige them, not pull this stunt like Google.
yesterday at 6:00 PM
Years ago Google did the same thing for āsafe searchā, a url schools could allow.
yesterday at 5:56 PM
I turned off all Ai features, then DDG added their search summaries, despite my setting for no ai
DDG pulls stunts too
I'm moving to API based search options, using multiple, and rendering them as markdown for myself or my agent
yesterday at 6:07 PM
Source: you made it up.
yesterday at 9:23 PM
> DDG is trying to be too much like Google now
I noticed the same with Qwant. They even try to copy the useless UI for Google. And on top of that I get a 2 seconds delay "verifying device".
It seems nobody knows how to create a proper search engine anymore. Google search is also useless compared to "the good old days".
yesterday at 5:38 PM
Duckduckgo's AI search feature is utterly worthless. Brave Search does a much better job (that is, if you don't mind 50+ captchas per week).
yesterday at 6:17 PM
I won't touch brave or anything the crypto ecosystem
I'm using API search like EXA, the incentives feel more aligned
yesterday at 5:19 PM
[dead]
yesterday at 5:21 PM
I think we've reached a point where reading the AI summary (which I think is Gemini Flash Lite) is probably going to be more reliable than actually reading the top 10 search results. The top 10 search results were often blogspam even in a pre-AI world. I feel like either you trust Google to retrieve information or you don't (and Gemini has problems but so does Google Search, and are you really sure the latter is worse than the former?)
It has been over a decade since Google Search was anything but a machine-learning powered word association engine. I miss old Google Search but it's dead and I trust Gemini more than what Search has turned into.
yesterday at 5:31 PM
That is NOT my experience. I used to have a dump of screenshots where Google AI from search is absolutely wrong. In my experience, it doesn't work and "quoting" things never told in the source (the exact contrary sometime), responding in hindi, responding in spanish, responding in mix of languages.
Most of the time it's quicker, sometimes it's just bad.
yesterday at 5:52 PM
It hallucinates so frequently, that I've found it unusable. Just ask it to provide sources for all of its claims, then watch how many times it reverses its original answer. It's mind-boggling to me. I've repeatedly tried to give Google AI Search a chance, but after weeks of seeing this behavior I can't trust it anymore.
Imagine winning search by being the fastest and most accurate, then replacing it w/ constant hallucinated errors.
yesterday at 5:48 PM
For me, I use it maybe ones or twice a month when my traditional search on DuckDuckGo fails. And, anecdotally, it is overwhelmingly wrong, and worse, confidently so.
Given my sample is biased as I am using it for an outlier of difficult web searches (including web searches localized to Iceland). But I would think that if your parent was correct, at least majority of my uses would be correct, but in my experience, Gemini fails most of the the time traditional web search fails. So to me at least, it is effectively useless.
For people who use it in place of normal web search, it is probably worse then useless, because of how confidently wrong it is.
yesterday at 5:35 PM
I think they model the model they use for these, probably at more cost to them. They've been much better as of late, imo
yesterday at 5:45 PM
They what the model?
yesterday at 8:39 PM
I meant 'upgraded'....oops haha. Too late to edit.
'I think they upgraded the model...."
yesterday at 6:24 PM
The model they model to model this is modeled by a model they model.
yesterday at 7:03 PM
The police police police police the police police.
yesterday at 6:17 PM
The argument is not that Google's AI summaries are infallible.
The argument is that there's so much garbage on the open web that clicking through to the source has a lower signal-to-noise ratio than the AI summary.
This rings very true in my experience.
Google's AI summaries definitely make mistakes, but in most cases they're higher signal than the source websites.
yesterday at 6:46 PM
You're underestimating how obviously, laughably wrong the AI summary often is.
I really think Google is making an error using such a lightweight model for the page. That's one of my only firsthand exposures to genAI, and it's awful. Use a decent model, or if that's too expensive don't put up a summary at all.
yesterday at 6:50 PM
They used to prioritize accuracy first, then speed second.
Now it's just speed. This is a grave error.
yesterday at 7:02 PM
yesterday at 6:57 PM
Once it quotes a gov website, exactly the contrary of the official source. Why ? Because on the official website you have checkboxes and the div shown is the one corresponding to your case and most surely the AI summary didn't have information about which one is which and just mix everything up.
yesterday at 5:23 PM
Why would a summary of unreliable blogspam results be more reliable than the blogspam results themselves?
I find it easier to recognize bullshit from its source vs an LLM's confident and well written regurgitation of it.
yesterday at 5:29 PM
I consistently get the impression that Gemini is better at sorting through the trash than whatever ranks SERPs these days is.
(Obviously far from perfect, often far from even good... just better.)
Which is not a good look for the Search teams/execs.
today at 1:26 AM
If Gemini's good at sorting through search results, and they're already using Gemini on every search, why don't they use it to help filter out the SEO spam?
yesterday at 5:32 PM
Only if the answer is already on Reddit.
yesterday at 5:27 PM
The summary isn't limited to the top 10 search results as sources so it need not be only based on blogspam like the first page of search results is/was. Whether or not it's actually better or not is still its own debate beside that point though.
yesterday at 5:38 PM
Because the summarizer knows what blogspam is.
yesterday at 7:05 PM
Funny how many RSSINGS pages still turn up in traditional Google search though
yesterday at 9:02 PM
"reading the AI summary is ... more reliable than actually reading the top 10 search results."
I don't quite understand what this even means. I both use AI chatbots frequently and still use keyword-based search engines frequently as well. When I use keyword-based search engines, it's usually because I want to see what sort of websites, discussions, resources, online hangouts, etc. exist around a given term, or just how the term is used. I often don't have a specific question or task in mind and just kind of want to wallow in the search results for a while, sort of like if I moved to a new city and just wanted to walk around different neighborhoods. otoh when I use an AI chatbot, it's usually because I have a specific question to ask, and often I don't know what the relevant search terms would even be. The use cases seem fundamentally different and I don't know how one could be "more reliable" than the other.
yesterday at 5:40 PM
I haven't checked this month, but the few times I used Google Search this year I saw egregious errors in the AI summary ~50% of the time. Things like confidently citing a statistic whose number appeared in the top 10 results, but misrepresenting what it pertains to.
yesterday at 6:52 PM
If you searched, whats my ip, you used to get your ip. Now you get an ai answer telling you to use one of the websites. How is that helpful?
yesterday at 10:51 PM
Oh, it's better than that for me:
> Your public IP address as seen by external servers is 66.249.68.3 (or check your live details via ifconfig.me or What Is My IP Address).
The AI just hallucinatesĀ¹ an IP. (I.e., that is most definitely not my IP address.)
(Ā¹it could possibly be invoking a tool here, I suppose. Either way, the answer is slop.)
yesterday at 6:28 PM
Use Kagi, it mostly excludes spam.
yesterday at 5:36 PM
Not my experience at all. I can usually trust chatgpt or Claude to give me accurate answers for queries but google summaries are frequently wrong
yesterday at 5:58 PM
The AI summary is just summarizing the top results. Itās not Gemini.
So I canāt understand how one would trust the summary but not what is being summarized.
today at 5:30 AM
I still find search results pretty good, if you use a tool like uBlacklist on DuckDuckGo. I prefer them to AI at times, as AI homogenises things.
yesterday at 5:42 PM
A recent study from oumi.ai found that the summaries contradict the sources they cite 10% of the time.
yesterday at 6:31 PM
Anecdotally, the percentage is way higher than 10% for some kinds of searches. I don't always use google, but i've tried it dozens of times the past few weeks to test their AI Summary / AI Overview, and it has yet to get anything correct. I've had to use other search engines or AIs literally every time.
mistakes vary from "obviously wrong" to "looks vaguely correct, but the source states something different" to "looks plausible, but the cited page is completely irrelevant, the AI clearly made this up" Even for straight fact lookups, I've seen it cite pages and claim one number, and then i click through and the source matches the vague shape of the answer but has a different number.
Its just constant hallucinations. "thats a common problem, just change this <setting that does not exist> or set <option that does not exist>". Full gemini seems more capable, but whatever google is throwing at the top of their free searches is awful IME.
yesterday at 8:15 PM
I'm guessing they're only counting one failure mode. But I think it's the one that would surprise most boosters. Even if it found a relevant page, and the information is fed into the model's context right there, the output is still completely backwards a fair fraction of the time.
yesterday at 5:52 PM
Google is trying to behaviorally condition children.
The relative effectiveness of the search is immaterial.
This is gross.
yesterday at 6:36 PM
From my experience it's worse than any of the normal Gemini models
yesterday at 5:22 PM
All weāre doing is adding another layer between us and the information. Google flash is still pulling on the same poor information. But itās not as good at discerning what is useful and what is not as we are (people going way too far out on a limb outside of their domain expertise not withstanding, which is another part of the problem and why this stuff can be dangerous)
yesterday at 5:23 PM
Canāt access the article, but would assume the schools are more concerned about students having Google AI doing their work for them, rather than concern about using the AI summary for search results?
today at 3:20 AM
Isnāt finding / vetting / analyzing / citing sources precisely the work students are required to do to teach them media literacy skills?
yesterday at 6:24 PM
Yes, this is the concern. Thankfully Google has a 'helpful' AI chatbot / tutor product that students can use instead of search!
yesterday at 10:40 PM
How is this related?
yesterday at 5:30 PM
at least before I was able a find a blog post or a discussion or fleck of documentation. Now I've pretty much stopped using Google because I've wasted so much time having been assured by Gemini that something is entirely possible when in fact its very much not. now I have to dig to find the canonical reference for a question, at least SEO people didn't spend a lot of energy trying to front rust crates.
This is all very tragic. we built a magic network where we could stash all the worlds information and access it from anywhere, except its been trashed by people with sleazy motivations trying to get between us and what we'd like to see.
yesterday at 9:06 PM
What? No. You're completely wrong. I frequently ask about "X" and the summary cites a single random Reddit post that doesn't even MENTION "X" as source for its assertions. That literally never happened before AI.
yesterday at 6:30 PM
Absolutely. Google has shown the courage to admit that their bread and butter business is changing permanently. they are adapting which the large cos rarely do.
My mother never used search. She found it too hard to manage. She uses Gemini all the time, it gives answers in her language and she does not need to type. She is incredibly happy.
My daughter talks to Gemini. The idea of going through links seems primitive to her.
The future of interface is chat/talking not going through clickbait.
I think schools should have some basic control on how kids can use AI but saying that they want to freeze the learning experience in 2020 is simply not right. It is like saying we wont allow whiteboards and markers.
yesterday at 11:34 PM
The question we need to be asking is does AI enhance or help learning?
NOT ādo kids use AI?ā
NOT ādo professionals use AI?ā
And not whatever other question we can conjure up. At the end of the day, if AI makes learning worse, then it doesnāt fucking matter how ubiquitous or awesome or cool it is. Because weāre sacrificing other skills that WE KNOW and have established that we need.
yesterday at 6:33 PM
Google shouldn't be making that choice for everyone.
yesterday at 6:50 PM
Thankfully, no one is forced to use google.
yesterday at 6:58 PM
It's an effective monopoly.
yesterday at 7:31 PM
Even worse, it's not even Google's doing.
People just really, really, really hate paying for stuff. Hell Google even lets you continue to use their services even if you block their ads. They're that generous, err, evil.
yesterday at 11:10 PM
Google wasn't exactly losing money with search results before.
If anything they're losing far more money with AI.
yesterday at 6:53 PM
Something I keep saying, AI people have a problem with consent.
yesterday at 6:59 PM
They refuse to understand that people could value different things than them, things like "understanding", "effort", "knowledge".
yesterday at 5:21 PM
Hopefully the schools that reject ai use in the classroom are savvy enough to pivot to an alternative search engine, easy workaround for them. Google is pulling Philip Morris moves and we should all abandon them.
yesterday at 6:27 PM
I'm glad I'm not the only one who has made the cigarette connection. It's interesting to note some of the cigarette companies pivoted to junk food after cigarettes went out of fashion. The business isn't really cigarettes, it's addiction.
yesterday at 6:47 PM
yesterday at 5:37 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 9:12 PM
AI literally makes students stupider, if any of these anti-human demons believed this they would force their own children to openly use these things but we always see time after time that the rich big tech elites will never subjugate their own children to this madness but see no issue with experimenting on children across society so they can make a few more dollars ratfucking the earth.
yesterday at 5:44 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 6:39 PM
Refresh, Reload, Retry
yesterday at 5:53 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 6:31 PM
It can go both ways. It can be really helpful for people who want to learn concepts, similar to having a private tutor (but free/cheap, and available 100% of the time). But it's also easy to use it to skip the learning process completely, and just get quick answers for homework.
As an adult, wanting to understand concepts for my own benefit, I've found it really useful as a learning tool. As a teenager, I probably would have been irresponsible with it and sabotaged myself.
yesterday at 6:19 PM
All computation offloads cognitive functions. That's what they are for. You could also read a bunch of index cards and decide for yourself which results to shortlist when doing research, instead of using a search engine.
yesterday at 6:09 PM
>A tool that has the sole purpose of offloading cognitive functions
This is a blatant strawman.
yesterday at 5:40 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 6:17 PM
Cardio?
yesterday at 8:36 PM
I'm not against dopamine outright, but I'm sure there are healthy and unhealthy relationships you can have with exercise. So yeah, sure, cardio too.
yesterday at 10:48 PM
A few days ago YouTube suddenly started showing me a selection of old Onion News Network videos including https://youtube.com/watch?v=ntICHMV-WMA , and https://youtube.com/watch?v=lMChO0qNbkY ! I should have known it was a warning.
yesterday at 9:42 PM
Try blocking `User-agent: Google-Extended` but allowing `User-agent: Googlebot` in robots.txt; your website will disappear from search after 2-3 days.
yesterday at 4:06 PM
Hopefully this will backfire and end with kids learning to use other search engines.
yesterday at 7:58 PM
Kids already use ChatGPT as their search engine. Which is precisely the reason Google doesn't want to compete with one hand tied behind their back.
yesterday at 5:28 PM
I legitimately canāt see where this isnāt what happens
today at 7:42 PM
A response from kagi was obvious, but I was hoping for more than "contact us for a quote and free trial" but maybe the quotes will actually be good.
https://blog.kagi.com/education-should-not-be-held-for-ranso...
yesterday at 9:37 PM
I blocked `User-agent: Google-Extended` but allowed `User-agent: Googlebot` on robots.txt. Later I noticed my site is not visible as usual in their search results. Reverted back 2 days after.
yesterday at 6:03 PM
If this truly is just the search engine and not other stuff on the google.com domain like OAuth login, then this seems rather unimportant.
Search is easily Google's least-sticky and most replaceable product. The only reason it gets more usage that other engines like DuckDuckGo and the swathes of other Bing frontends is because it's the default and has the brand appeal for people who don't know better.
yesterday at 7:56 PM
> Search is easily Google's least-sticky and most replaceable product. The only reason it gets more usage that other engines like DuckDuckGo and the swathes of other Bing frontends is because it's the default and has the brand appeal for people who don't know better.
This is a wild take, and ignores decades of evidence to the contrary.
yesterday at 8:34 PM
Search is very sticky, it's why they push genAI in it so hard, it the product everyone uses. Unfortunately, ddg is still often worse than Google.
yesterday at 4:48 PM
I've heard anecdotal stories from MS-365 users that say it feels handicapped without Copilot. One govt worker said they noticed a marked change in Word spell-checking after they had to block all AI on their systems.
yesterday at 5:08 PM
Isn't Google Search a form of AI in its own right? I mean with RankBrain?
yesterday at 7:57 PM
AI is a marketing term. It's not a technology.
yesterday at 5:15 PM
No. Not in the contemporary common meaning of the term āAIā.
5 years ago you would be technically correct, but today āAIā is only a subset of technologies that used to be included in the term. Namely Large Language Models, Text To Image Models, Text To Video Models, and other forms of generative AI that take in a user text prompt. These other types of statistical models are now simply called Machine Learning Algorithms.
Very few people today say āAIā, and mean āany type of Machine Learning Algorithmā.
yesterday at 5:50 PM
But wait AI is not only the LLMs. Machine Learning is AI just like Computer Vision is.
yesterday at 6:01 PM
I can't believe I'm saying this, but there may actually be a case for using "SI" now. I'm not saying machine learning somehow stopped being AI, but the term "AI" has become so synonymous with generative AI that people are apparently starting to retroactively redefine the entire field in terms of LLMs.
yesterday at 8:48 PM
I prefer GenAI except the āGenā stands for āgeneralā because, really, the other kinds of ML/AI being contemplated in this thread are not at all general.
Like, before this you had extremely specialized models being painstakingly trained for an extremely specialized task using mountains of specialized data, painstakingly collected and labeled for correspondingly specific features, typically done by ML engineers (a specialized discipline) further specialized in that problem domain. And most users only have ever experienced all this abstractly through extremely narrow and specific functionalities like recommendations or ads.
On the other hand, any random person can hand these GenAI models any task that can be expressed as words or images or sound or some combination thereof and have a shockingly good chance of getting useful results. Yes they sometimes contain mistakes, but if you simply point them out, the models can often fix them!
I donāt know how much more general things can get than that.
It does get a bit uncomfortably close to āAGIā, which is a vague, heavily contentious term. But this sidesteps all that by not calling it AGI. The conventional āGenerative AIā interpretation of GenAI thus becomes a convenient decoy for āGeneral AIā ;-)
yesterday at 7:52 PM
CI. Conversational interface. That's the difference. Simply a way to interact with a computer through the same mechanisms that you would use to interact with a person, through that computer's calculating a probable human reaction to a stimulus, after looking at millions of them and counting the likelihood of all possible reactions.
The real problem is pretending like there's any thought there at all. It's not programming because it knows how a computer works, it's programming because it can calculate what a person could likely write - which is why it writes source code rather than machine language. The value comes from the fact that it can chain a bunch of these reactions together, and react to things that don't originate from a human - if set to do so by a human, and they are things that a human could also predictably react to.
I'm not 100% sure you should be able to separate it from spam detection, though. It's learning from reading emails, and later whether that email is later marked as spam or saved from the spam pile. The critical part for me is whether that information is just going to be used to detect spam, or whether it's going to be used for something else.
If you're telling me you're not going to offer me spam detection, unless I not only agree to train your spam classifier, but some other model(s) too, just say that. It makes it clear that you're taking ownership of my data as payment.
As for children being able to sell their data as payment for the use of a search engine, the government pretends to be concerned about that - why doesn't it act here?
yesterday at 6:14 PM
I am actually of the opinion that the problematic term is intelligence and that āsuper intelligenceā wonāt actually help. This term has caused tons of issues in psychology and is now causing other issues in technology and journalism.
However I think it is a lost battle and I am willing to concede the term over to its current usage. I am however glad that traditional statistical models are no longer referred to by this trouble term. I think machine learning also has issues, and wish people would just be specific with their description by stating the particular algorithm they use (e.g. Markov Chains; ANN; Kalman Filter; etc.) but still accept āmachine learningā this as a massive improvement over āartificial intelligenceā.
yesterday at 5:57 PM
Everyone here is aware of this fact.
Everyone here is also aware of what specific form of AI is being discussed here, including, I suspect, you.
yesterday at 7:27 PM
To paraphrase Pink Floyd's Another Brick in the Wall, "How can you have any Google Search pudding if you don't eat your Google Gemini AI meat?" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdu0RQOKR0I
Also, as mentioned elsewhere in this discussion, Google's "Search and A.I. are deeply integrated" assertion is eerily reminiscent of the "Windows and I.E. are deeply integrated" assertion Microsoft made in United States vs. Microsoft. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
yesterday at 8:39 PM
Major self-own. Hope this turns into a big boost for DDG and Kagi for Edu.
yesterday at 9:24 PM
Exactly. I haven't used Google search for years and this will surely accelerate awareness of alternatives.
yesterday at 10:41 PM
Thatās a bad move from Google because if there is really one place where you can get rid of Google search, itās at school.
Students donāt really carre if their school computer use DuckDuckGo or Google.
And if you can even open student eyes on Google alternative, thatās a great thing.
They are shooting themselves in the foot, and Iām glad they are doing it.
today at 1:43 PM
Who has migrated away from Gmail (and Google Docs) recently? Where did you go? What was your process so you didnāt loose emails/files?
yesterday at 4:44 PM
This is great! Push more people towards DuckDuckGo, etc.
yesterday at 9:47 PM
Sadly DuckDuckGo rely on Microsofts's Bingbot scraping data. You block Bingbot in robots.txt, your site not visible in search results in DuckDuckGo.
yesterday at 11:52 PM
[dead]
today at 12:10 AM
[flagged]
yesterday at 5:03 PM
Schools will ditch the AI AND the search engine, too. Masterfully played, google.
yesterday at 4:06 PM
How is this not monopolistic behavior?
yesterday at 4:54 PM
Yeah, I read this and immediately thought ātying arrangement.ā But theyāre not CHARGING separately for search and AI, so I doubt a tying theory would hold up in court.
yesterday at 5:33 PM
yesterday at 4:30 PM
Their search engine is now integrated with Ai. So either google would need to block the search engine or the school if they don't want Ai. Take your pick.
yesterday at 4:44 PM
That's the same argument Microsoft made with Internet Explorer.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor....
yesterday at 5:18 PM
A lot of these schools use tablets though. The kids probably use their phones so more likely to be google. Higher grades though use laptops I think so more likely Microsoft then. So far internet explorer is not integrated with Ai but microsoft copilot though is 100% ai and can be used for search.
yesterday at 5:20 PM
I'm not talking about Copilot, I'm talking about IE6 back in the 90s, where Microsoft took the "oh woe is us it'll be so hard to undo the deep unnecessary integration we built for this very purpose" tactic.
yesterday at 5:36 PM
That happened before some of the readers of this thread were born. A summary for those people, from the fog of distant memories: MS had an Internet Explorer that was not integrated in Windows, it was like any other browser. Then they decided to build it inside Windows. I remember that the Windows desktop got web views like widgets (web view as a name probably did not exist yet) and they called it Active Desktop. I think that it as COM/OLE objects too and the web view was probably one of them. File Explorer itself got an Internet Explorer like skin, probably with single click to navigate directories and open files, as if they were links. Then they claimed that it was impossible to disentangle IE from Windows. That eventually paved the way to the ruling against MS.
When I hear a giant company say that modifying some of its software is impossible I always think about that IE and laugh.
yesterday at 5:28 PM
I agree with that view point.. yup
yesterday at 5:32 PM
Billy Gates swore on a bible that Internet Explorer could not be removed and lied his ass off.
Profited very handsomely from his lies.
yesterday at 6:14 PM
And what was the end result there?
yesterday at 6:21 PM
Microsoft was successfully forced to unbundle IE?
yesterday at 6:27 PM
Not really? In the US it kept being bundled by default, they just made it possible to disable the front end; the MSHTML rendering engine was unremovable.
yesterday at 6:41 PM
It doesn't even exist any more, and they were required to open up APIs to third-party browser makers. We'd be worse off without the settlement.
yesterday at 6:43 PM
They just renamed it to Edge when they rebooted the UI. It's still a bundled browser, indeed the bundling is more aggressive than ever.
yesterday at 6:52 PM
Edge is Chromium. Their competitor's engine.
yesterday at 7:12 PM
It is now, but it initially did use Trident. I was on the IE team when Edge launched.
yesterday at 7:23 PM
Does "Microsoft now bundles Google's browser engine" really scream "won the browser wars" to you?
Do you not think the settlement requiring APIs be opened up helped enable Chrome at all?
yesterday at 7:43 PM
No, because the post-settlement era was actually the era of consolidated IE dominance. Chrome only started because MS, in their (unbroken by the FTC) dominance had sat around doing nothing for the web, which was bad for a web-based company like Google. Chrome also avoided using platform APIs because they wanted to be cross-platform.
yesterday at 5:53 PM
Their search engine will omit "AI" summaries if you add &udm=14 to the query URL.
I added a custom search engine entry to firefox that does this, made it the default, and haven't seen an AI summary from Google since I did that.
yesterday at 6:28 PM
That filter does much more, it removes all the "first party" results, AI or otherwise. You are better off with adding "-ai" to the query.
yesterday at 11:24 PM
Even then, -ai doesn't always follow directions.
Google has a severe problem with consent.
yesterday at 4:55 PM
Obviously they have at least a back-end search service that isn't tangled up with an LLM. When Gemini says "Searching the web..." it isn't chatbots all the way down. Google just needs to make a human UI for the same search Gemini uses.
yesterday at 5:20 PM
It depends if you ask it a question or simply specify an object I think.
yesterday at 9:21 PM
Yeah sure "integrated".
Hiding one div is 90% of the solution.
yesterday at 6:02 PM
Itās not integrated, they are lying
yesterday at 8:44 PM
This makes perfect sense. How is it even news?
Google Search uses lots of AI. Google is now allowing schools to turn off all AI entirely. That, obviously turns off Google Search. This is the feature working as intended.
It seems like school administrators will get to control which products get AI, individually. Which is what they've been asking for:
> After listening to schools, teachers, leading researchers, and policymakers, we are now updating our approach to controls for Gemini, Gemini Notebook, Gemini in Classroom, and Google Search. Access to these products will be entirely off for K-12 student accounts until school administrators explicitly turn them on.
Am I missing something here...? This announcement seems to be 100% good, but people are writing like it's 100% bad.
yesterday at 9:05 PM
Schools want to use Google Search, but without "AI Overview" or other LLM interfaces in students' search experience.
yesterday at 5:25 PM
Kind of makes sense, given how integrated Gemini summaries are to Google Search, last I checked, but ultimately, this might be a good thing. I'm 100% in favor of breaking Google's monopoly one way or another. Brave and DuckDuckGo and Kagi are all fine alternatives worthy of more prominence.
yesterday at 6:18 PM
I overall agree with you, but I'm certain google could just disable the AI summaries on top in these scenarios instead
yesterday at 8:19 PM
I suppose the old Google search algorithm has already been replaced by something that uses llms.
yesterday at 6:24 PM
There are LLM outputs all over the page, not just at the top.
yesterday at 5:31 PM
It would be amazing to have working web search again.
AI lies and gaslighting are driving me up the wall. (Good thing I don't have hypertension.)
yesterday at 6:28 PM
If Microsoft pulled this stunt, this post would have 2500 points, but when Google does it 253.
yesterday at 11:41 PM
> Access to these products [AI and search] will be entirely off for K-12 student accounts until school administrators explicitly turn them on.
I do not put it past Google to hold access to search hostage unless schools use AI. However, the above quote could be interpreted as "turn on/off each tool individually" instead of collectively. Wouldnt be surprised if thats explicitly stated later on even if that wasn't Google's orginal intention
yesterday at 8:42 PM
>The consumer version of Guided Learning is already available within Gemini, and can enable cheating. In a reporterās test, it produced a detailed essay in response to an Advanced Placement history prompt.
I don't envy trying to stop cheating in an AI world, but when a student gets to the AP History level, if they want to cheat they'll know how to do it, with or without using a Google product with their school login.
Best you can do is guide them down the "correct" path, which itself is going to be harder and harder with AI generated content out in the wild.
yesterday at 4:09 PM
It will be interesting to see what search engine students start using. I still use Google because that's what I used at school.
today at 1:22 AM
Based on the last couple years as a teacher, they've already stopped using Google in favor of AI. AI even helpfully now provides links to real sources they won't bother to open to ensure actually exist
yesterday at 4:23 PM
I think that's the largest shortsightedness of google's choice.
All those kids will get used to whatever other search they can use.
yesterday at 5:32 PM
They don't care, they think they're too big to fail.
yesterday at 5:34 PM
They don't care, they think traditional search is already dead and are trying to jump ship to save the company. Pretty sure the kids these days all use "chat" anyway, not search engines.
yesterday at 6:48 PM
today at 12:51 AM
Just because you start doing good actions by preventing access to other of your services doesn't mean we are going to forget the bad ones.
yesterday at 7:04 PM
Kagi might have a great opportunity with a cheap/free/freemium model for K-12 students.
Not only would the students become familiar with it and accustomed to the quality results, but the adults would see it and also appreciate the quality, including as an educational too.
yesterday at 9:11 PM
Also, schools and parents might appreciate the lack of ads.
yesterday at 6:27 PM
AI summaries are listed before the full page of Ads, that is ironically the best thing about it in this stupid dystopia
yesterday at 7:16 PM
I wouldnāt count on that staying that way
today at 1:24 AM
I'm sure they're already spending plenty of effort to merge them together
yesterday at 4:03 PM
> If a school has banned A.I., he [Chris Phillips, vice president for education at Google] added, students āwill not have access to search, and theyāll see a message from their school that indicates itās not available.ā
So scummy! Make it sound like the school's decision, rather than Google's.
yesterday at 5:11 PM
That's what every Big Tech company has done when threatened with loss of access to their children: weaponize the children themselves with poor gaslighting to fight the adults so Big Tech gets its way.
Google says it's the big mean school's fault, so the school kids are all gonna band up and try to protest and argue and disrupt because they can't get Google Search.
When Epic didn't get its way... turn the kids against the adults by threatening to take their Fortnite away.
yesterday at 4:06 PM
Sad to see Google's playbook become "be as evil as possible"
I know they removed "don't be evil" a while ago now, but they didn't have to immediately become the exact opposite
today at 6:01 AM
Rest of your point notwithstanding, the misinformation about "don't be evil" being removed drives me up the wall.
https://abc.xyz/investor/board-and-governance/google-code-of...
Look. It's right there. Still. It was moved, not removed.
yesterday at 3:58 PM
I wonder if schools will manage to filter this. Probably on windows , but I'm less sure on chromebooks.
yesterday at 4:14 PM
The students can just log in with a generic Gmail account using a incognito tab.
yesterday at 4:18 PM
That's often blocked on school-provided devices.
yesterday at 5:39 PM
The schools thought of that. Every connection (at least on my school laptop) is MITMed.
yesterday at 5:38 PM
Then they will get the AI features the school wants blocked.
yesterday at 8:24 PM
today at 6:47 PM
be evil
yesterday at 6:44 PM
This plus them discontinuing chromebooks seems like a big opportunity for someone.
yesterday at 7:00 PM
What the hell is happening with Google lately?
They seemed to have been comfortable in the role of the main monopolist, extracting inane ammount of money from people directly or indirectly, all without most people really noticing.
Then like a year ago they seems to have turned batshit evil, doing stuff that does not really make them any more money, is highly visible, makes many people angry & gives munition to their competition not to mention anti-monopoly and digital sovereignty advocates.
yesterday at 8:05 PM
The AI sumaries ate a huge share of the ads views, so Google is desperate trying to replace that revenue.
yesterday at 5:01 PM
You can tell that AI features in user-facing software are good and popular because of the way that companies have to keep forcing them onto users even if they try to opt out.
yesterday at 5:02 PM
Its all very inorganic and forced. This only fuels the idea of it being a bubble that will pop (not if it will pop)
yesterday at 5:48 PM
Yes, the customer for many of these AI pushes is the shareholder, not the user.
yesterday at 6:15 PM
Schools can just negotiate with kagi for some uni or school deal, right?
yesterday at 11:20 PM
This would be an excellent opportunity for Kagi to swoop in and offer free or highly discounted access to schools.
Fuck google
yesterday at 4:19 PM
This is great! Google search has been declining in usefulness so much, that it shouldn't be used by students anyway. And then there's the shitty ai summaries, which students definitely shouldn't have to worry about whether or not it's accurate.
today at 12:57 PM
De-Googled
Mission accomplished
yesterday at 4:30 PM
For responsibile learning, focus on pencil, paper, and books.
yesterday at 4:55 PM
I love old school research using books, however the advantages of connected information cannot be understated.
We could do much better with access to online libraries (which don't exist, apart from the very limited sample from these books accessible using Wikipedia).
Current (blogs and articles and forums) online resources provide information at a rate book search just can't provide.
yesterday at 9:07 PM
Yes. If you're optimizing for fast answers over learning, it's a good tool.
yesterday at 9:54 PM
Neither.
I optimize for finding the answer to a given question, without knowing beforehand if it will be found online or in an research article or in a book.
And I mean finding the right answer, before you mention "learning" like it is something that can't be done using computers.
yesterday at 10:34 PM
Learning can certainly be done using computers. But also not as effectively as stepping away from the answer machine to puzzle it out yourself.
today at 10:33 AM
You are not the only person familiar with Feynman's strategy to approach a new topic.
today at 4:39 PM
This isn't coming from Feynman. There's decades of research into how education works.
today at 2:54 PM
Except finding the answer to a question has never been what schooling is about. Otherwise we would hand kids a calculator at age 5 and completely skip teaching arithmetic.
yesterday at 7:02 PM
> online libraries (which don't exist, apart from the very limited sample from these books accessible using Wikipedia).
There are many, but all short of the potential for knowledge and learning:
Internet Archive Lending Library, Hathi Trust, Libby / Overdrive, U. of Pennsylvania's Online Books Page:
https://onlinebooks.library.upenn.edu/
There are also the shadow libraries, of course.
yesterday at 5:11 PM
We put men on the moon with pencil and paper.
Trillions and trillions of dollars of technology later, and the best we can do now is fly by and wave.
yesterday at 6:22 PM
Jesus, it has absolutely nothing to do with not having the technological capacity to go back and land on the moon, and everything to do with political and social will. We have rockets doing gymnastics in the sky and landing doing back-flips, you really think we've regressed because "we're not doing pen and paper"?
today at 3:26 AM
Donāt you think it irresponsible to delete (modern) media literacy education?
yesterday at 4:35 PM
Very narrow minded approach, why not use the tools available? Experimentation is one of the best ways to learn, breaking stuff is a great way to learn. Doesnāt mean that people wonāt fall into some traps along the way, but thatās kind of the case with anything.
This is along the lines of āfor responsible parenting, never let your kids out of sightā.
yesterday at 4:41 PM
> Experimentation is one of the best ways to learn, breaking stuff is a great way to learn.
Breaking stuff sometimes is a way to learn "don't break that".
Broken children can be tough to fix.
yesterday at 6:13 PM
What are we even talking about here? It seems like we are totally different discussions.
yesterday at 6:19 PM
You said "why not use the tools available?"
The answer is "sometimes the new fancy tools are bad, and it can take decades to confirm that".
yesterday at 6:27 PM
Yes, thank you for extrapolating my comment into a massive over generalization. I guess I'll leave you to your books and pencils while I go actually explore the massive world around me to see what works and what doesn't.
yesterday at 6:54 PM
Schoolkids aren't Drosophila, with ~10 day reproductive cycles and disposable at the end of the experiment. Experiments take years/decades, have loads of confounding variables, and you can wreck a generation or two if you go too far down the wrong route too quickly.
AI in schools may be useful! It may be horribly bad. It'll be a while before we know.
yesterday at 4:39 PM
Yes, doing things by hand is another thing to prioritize.
A good deal of research shows that most learning happens when you recognize and back off from an incorrect solution on your own, without outside guidance. So, the key to a good learning environment is setting up scenarios where the backround information is present, and answers aren't out of reach, but there's a bit of struggle to find them.
This is also how you learn to learn, and develop grit. Grit is one of the best predictors of success.
Technology that gives answers or guides heavily is harmful to the learning process.
yesterday at 6:16 PM
Totally agree! I think the risk within the context of the task is important, if you can work within an environment where you can make mistakes but not cause catastrophic consequences, its a good environment. I think its also great to get to a solution and realize it wasn't the right way to do something, and then iterate, there is not always a need to back off, although intuition over time will be great to notify someone that maybe they are on the wrong track.
yesterday at 4:42 PM
Its also an approach backed up by research and studdies. I still cannot believe there are people in education that can maintain that humans under 25 arent done neurologically developing ans have issues managing distractions and that tech in the classroom is a good idea (outside of classes deliberately teaching technology)
yesterday at 4:54 PM
Allowing teachers to experiment somewhat more would be great. It would be motivating for teachers and good for students in the long run.
Centrally forcing schools to do what is good for corporation is not experimentation.
yesterday at 6:58 PM
Are you volunteering your kids for the test group, accepting that if the experiment fails, you can't undo it?
yesterday at 9:10 PM
I am ok with giving my kids teachers more autonomy, yes. I dont think micromanaging them leads to good results.
yesterday at 9:53 PM
I'm not sure that avoiding malpractice is micromanaging. I'm also pro doctors washing their hands.
yesterday at 4:07 PM
This comes off as comically evil. Disabling the AI summaries in search results is trivial, so them refusing to do so and blocking search entirely feels like a blatant attempt at coercion. Isn't it an abuse of monopoly power?
yesterday at 5:33 PM
I'm sure they will rethink this when Trump's term ends.
yesterday at 4:11 PM
That would make sense if the AI summaries from Search were a different product.
yesterday at 4:17 PM
These summaries have been trivially bolted on, they're entirely self-contained, they can be easily turned off.
yesterday at 4:24 PM
Some results also have thumbnails. They could easily be turned off. That doesnāt mean thumbnails are a different product, or an abuse of monopoly power.
yesterday at 5:39 PM
It does if the thumbnails are harmful and you're as market dominant as Google with the incalculable levers of coersion like turning off your email or drive which they spend 20 years actively doing everything possible to get everyone to use.
yesterday at 6:01 PM
Whether the AI summaries are harmful to users of Search has no bearing on whether the AI summaries are an abuse of monopoly power.
yesterday at 6:17 PM
They are both, but one is the only reason the other matters.
yesterday at 4:33 PM
And sometimes they just fail to generate, while the search still shows the usual results.
yesterday at 5:40 PM
Possibly they want to evolve the feature to be _not_ bolted on.
today at 2:43 PM
Why is everyone carrying Google's water for them?
If I could write an extension right now that would remove the AI summary, then I think Google could add a toggle for it somewhere in the admin settings.
yesterday at 4:33 PM
A big part of this era is a shift to de-anonymizing all search, research, etc. That should be seen as its own problem separate from one's feelings about AI.
yesterday at 8:00 PM
Given their recent stock hit due to Search and Ads taking a hit from the AI mode stuff, I'm a bit surprised they're doubling down more on making their core business inaccessible unless people opt into AI. Particularly since these are for children, where their ad data is probably (?) not as monetizeable, it doesn't make sense.
The only reasoning I can think of is that this is an intentional play to get students indoctrinated into Google's AI ecosystem, which is scummy but I guess also the entire reason the Chromebook education stuff exists
yesterday at 6:32 PM
Perennial reminder: when āGoogleā does things, what that means is that the two individuals who jointly have a controlling stake in Google, Page and Brin, choose for Google to do these things, or choose not to prevent Google from doing them. Obviously with an exception for things that they genuinely may not have heard about or might not have time for: but that leaves a lot of things. Object persistence is very real: donāt give Page and Brin a pass for things that Musk or Zuckerberg would be excoriated for simply because Page and Brin donāt jump up and down for attention on social media.
yesterday at 8:32 PM
Yep:
Larry Page: 27.4% of voting stock
Sergey Brin: 25.3% of voting stock
Other officers: 1.6% of voting stockyesterday at 6:31 PM
My high schooler is prohibited from using AI in his homework (and pretty good about sticking to that, at least for now).
Probably time to switch him to Kagi. Google Search is pretty bad anyway.
yesterday at 5:01 PM
Oh no! What shall they do?
yesterday at 5:10 PM
Perhaps other big tech companies can also threaten the public with a good time?
yesterday at 4:10 PM
What do schools need Google for anyway? Had education deteriorated this much already?
yesterday at 4:11 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Classroom
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_for_Education
yesterday at 5:45 PM
Google is a pretty essential part of any assignment where independent research is a component.
today at 1:56 PM
It isn't, there are other search engines. Best for the students to figure that out now.
yesterday at 6:09 PM
Yeah, you'd think by 2026 there'd be literally any other way to conduct research via the web.
Maybe even like some kind of aggregator that allows you to combine several other search engines' results.
That'd be really cool if that exi...oh, wait...
yesterday at 4:13 PM
Images for a slideshow, citations for an essay, research for a project?
yesterday at 7:22 PM
Don't you do that on your own personal computer and not.. on a school computer? Though, I'd advise against Google these days since it doesn't surface good results anymore. Even Bing is now better.
yesterday at 10:47 PM
You can't count on kids having access to personal computers. And sometimes the computer is the class. I taught graphic design, and even though the kids all had licenses to use the Adobe suite at home, few actually could.
today at 8:50 AM
Aren't all of them carrying smartphones these days? If not, there's the public library.
Not that I think you'd need Google for school work. I know I never used it when I was in school. Everything related to class could be looked up in the textbooks. At most I used Wikipedia to find reference links for homework.
today at 10:15 AM
They are carrying smartphones. They're not allowed to come out during class, they don't have access to the WiFi, and cell signal is extraordinarily weak across most of the campus.
Public library? They're at a school. They're sitting in front of a computer. They should be able to use it to find information. You keep reaching for "why do they need it?" but there's no reason why they should not have access to search engines. I provided several examples and there are very many more out there. Not every class teaches from a textbook.
today at 6:57 PM
What the heck are they doing in front of a computer while at school? Why ban smartphones, but not computers?
When in class, pay attention to what the teacher says. At home you can look up stuff on the Internet.
yesterday at 4:37 PM
Yes, when I was a student I never touched Google and don't understand why anyone would need it. /s
It's true, I used AltaVista and Yahoo! search because Google didn't exist yet.
yesterday at 7:25 PM
I don't understand why you would need to use it at school, in a classroom with a teacher present. It's not like Google does anything to student's personal computers at home or the one in the public library.
yesterday at 8:30 PM
As an example, when I was at school, I would use the library in the building to do research for my papers. It would be odd for a major search engine to just not be available at my school, I feel. I would have to wait for the weekend to go home and be on a network that's not the schools to then use that search engine? Very inconvenient.
today at 1:41 AM
Corporations (especially american ones) shouldn't be let near 1000 miles radius of children or schools. It's understandable that they go by the playbook of religion: get them young.
yesterday at 7:54 PM
Tangentially related:
Google is willing to sacrifice children to push engagement. In family link they refuse to let me restrict the Google app. In what world do I want my 1st or 2nd grader opening the Google app and reading the news about murder, rape, and all the other horrendous things that are common in the Google apps news summary? Give us parents actual control in androids parental control app!
yesterday at 9:18 PM
I don't think Google is going to teach these schools or students the lesson it is hoping to!!
yesterday at 7:40 PM
Google search enshittified itself. We have evidence that at least some leaders with power inside google made search perform worse to increase ad revenue (if users search more, they see more ads).
There wasn't a better alternative, until LLMs came along. It will be some time until the wild west of LLM-SEO hacking settles into some semblence of a stable ecosystem, but even with misinformation and hallucinations today chatgpt far outperforms search engines for virtually everything we want search engines to do.
So google is under existential threat for the first time ever.
And they appear to be playing "all search is AI now, so you can't have one without the other."
yesterday at 7:33 PM
"Traditional" search, AI mode search and Gemini all present similar content rankings. The end result of a student searching "How did Abraham Lincoln win the 1860 election" will only vary by presentation, not narrative.
If Google were to "turn off AI" -- how far back into their ranking engine would they have to go? That would require them to run a 15+ year old engine, and the results would be worse than useless. Approaching Alta-vista levels of noisiness.
yesterday at 6:29 PM
Is this the best ever use of the phrase āand nothing of value was lostā? Might be.
yesterday at 8:00 PM
yesterday at 5:27 PM
kagi should swoop in and offer some sort of deal.
Get people used to search without ads or influence or data collection or any incentive other than getting you what you asked for as honestly as possible.
Or maybe more pointedly, get them to even become aware of the difference between home and school, or everyone else's computers and their own.
yesterday at 4:50 PM
The economic elite really want to dumb children down at the same time of juicing their AI numbers by bundling LLMs and searches even when they don't need to be.
yesterday at 5:26 PM
Like, what are we even doing as a society?
yesterday at 4:38 PM
Very interesting approach. Basically, you can no longer use Google Search as a way to discover and learn about a subject the old-school way.
I guess the point here is that Google thinks schools need to start using AI, and that all this "no AI in schools" talk is nonsense.
yesterday at 4:52 PM
> Very interesting approach. Basically, you can no longer use Google Search as a way to discover and learn about a subject the old-school way.
If by "interesting" you mean "abusive and coercive."
> I guess the point here is that Google thinks schools need to start using AI, and that all this "no AI in schools" talk is nonsense.
Explain that more please: whose talk is "nonsense"? Google's? Parents'? Schools'?
'Cause it sounds Google is saying this:
> You silly parents and educators, you thought you set educational policy for your students? No, we actually do. Your choices will conform to our business plans of the moment, or we will make your life so painful and difficult that you will "consent" to our demands.
> Did we mention our motto is "don't be evil"? We live our values every day.
yesterday at 5:10 PM
> I guess the point here is that Google thinks schools need to start using AI, and that all this "no AI in schools" talk is nonsense.
More generously, it seems like Google just doesn't see a justification for maintaining an AI-free search platform alongside their AI-integrated vision for search.
For a smaller vendor in a competitive market, this decision wouldn't read like coercion. It would just be a roadmap statement that might draw some customers in and drive some towards competitors. You would expect a business to be able to make that kind of decision (a prima facie reasonable one) about how they'll invest in their products and the support infrastructure that surrounds them.
What this story really exposes is how dependent schools have been made on Google specifically and how the idea of independently making choices against their roadmap feels infeasible. It feels like a monopoly to administrators and the public even if it isn't formally marked as such by regulatory agencies.
That itself is worth more people thinking about.
yesterday at 4:53 PM
that is an absolutely repugnant take from anyone at Google (I will not attribute this to a legal entity that cannot think, a human being made this call and is accountable for it). They are not educators and should have absolutely zero say in how schools do things.
yesterday at 7:21 PM
They don't; they do however have say on how they develop their own products, and they want to stuff search full of AI. At least they let schools opt out of it easily.
"You don't have to use AI, but if not you can't stay here".
yesterday at 11:15 PM
They absolutely try to. Who do you think is lobbying for increased technology in classrooms?
today at 6:35 AM
Trying to sell your product is fine. Google has no more "say" in how schools do things than say Pearson does. They provide educational tools, which schools can choose to buy or not.
yesterday at 4:52 PM
Google thinks that will be more profitable if they force schools to use AI. They do not think "no AI in schools" talk is nonsense, they think "no AI in schools" is bad for their bottom line, somehow.
yesterday at 5:41 PM
well, they gotta get those kids hooked on ai while they're young you know
yesterday at 4:51 PM
Google thinks forcing schools to use AI to fuel search will give them great cash. You have far too kind a view on what Google hopes AI will do to schools and not nearly a cynical economic one.
yesterday at 4:51 PM
Of course. They have a bridge^W^WAI to sell to you.
This is attempted coercion, plain and simple.
yesterday at 4:55 PM
KPIs have to be met
yesterday at 5:24 PM
Is it this time of year at Google?
yesterday at 5:27 PM
Isn't it always that time of year at a large corp?
today at 12:46 PM
There's sometimes a lull after new goals have been set and the next review is just that little bit further in the future.
yesterday at 4:55 PM
I mean technically I didn't even have Google search when I went to school.
yesterday at 5:06 PM
There are a lot of things we didnāt have when we were younger that are far more necessary today than they were then.
yesterday at 5:07 PM
Wow, blatant monopoly behavior
today at 7:05 AM
Denial of service as a means of extortion? Figures. If you let the monster corporations do whatever the fuck they want, they will.
yesterday at 4:05 PM
so what? there are alternatives... and who still googles nowadays anyways :)
yesterday at 4:09 PM
[dead]
yesterday at 5:07 PM
Google really is an evil, enshittified company now. I see it every day when I'm on YouTube with an ad-blocker. "Experiencing interruptions?" Yeah, Google, thanks for fucking with me. If you don't want me viewing your videos, don't make them accessible on the standard protocols.
There are a host of other search engines. I use search.brave.com myself (after leta.mullvad.com was decommissioned).
Students will learn about other search engines, and about how corporations are not your friends. Both good lessons to learn.
today at 2:52 AM
Don't be evil... Yeah, yeah.
yesterday at 5:20 PM
win-win
yesterday at 10:08 PM
Claiming they're inextricably linked, eh, Google?
Microsoft tried this with IE way back when. Didn't go well for them in court. I think it's time Google faced the same music.
yesterday at 4:57 PM
It's like the signed the "Let's be as evil as possible" pledge around 2016 isn't it. It's not just enshitification, it is evilshitification.
yesterday at 5:07 PM
Google gets worse and worse every year.
yesterday at 5:10 PM
Founders stopped running it, same story as IBM
yesterday at 5:14 PM
This is absolutely not why google is worse. Larry, Sergey, and Sundar want more money and more money for them means a shittier product for users.
yesterday at 4:14 PM
For free users: https://archive.is/20261103145613/https://www.nytimes.com/20...
yesterday at 4:31 PM
The changed title on this post is problematic.
yesterday at 4:34 PM
I'm not a fan of "by ceejayoz" on a link and title I never even submitted, yeah.
edit: Looks like it was undone. Thank you, whoever that was.
yesterday at 4:43 PM
The changed link is even more problematic.
yesterday at 4:15 PM
I really don't like that my original submission "Google Will Turn Off Search for Schools That Reject A.I." from the New York Times got replaced with "Designing responsible AI for learning" PR slop from Google Corporate that doesn't even disclose this limitation.
If the mods are gonna Orwell this, at least take my name off it.
edit: Thanks, mods, for putting it back.
yesterday at 5:20 PM
yesterday at 4:40 PM
Yeah, that is not ok at all. Flagged this post.
yesterday at 4:47 PM
Yeah, that's disturbing behavior. Maybe I've been living under a rock, but I kinda assumed the mod team wouldn't blatantly whitewash like this
yesterday at 4:52 PM
We were just applying the guidelines policy:
Please submit the original source. If a post reports on something found on another site, submit the latter.
The exception to this this where a source contains significant additional information that is not in the original source, which, as commenters have pointed out, seems to be true in this case.
yesterday at 4:55 PM
> The exception to this this where a source contains significant additional information that is not in the original sourceā¦
This will virtually always be the case of a reputable news article about a PR announcement written by a corporate marketing department of this nature.
Example, currently #2 on the home page: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50336918 would need to be changed to https://www.fujifilm.com/me/en/news/hq/14137.
I would also note the same guideline says to use the original title, which was (and remains, as submitted) "Google Will Turn Off Search for Schools That Reject A.I."
yesterday at 4:54 PM
They are constantly tipping the scales here, and if you say so everyone will show up and claim they're the best mod team on the planet and totally fair and it's outrageous that you want to see accountability for mod actions via some sort of mod log and the mods will say that a mod log will allow some sort of bad actors to do something vague and threatening and they'll also use rules like a cudgel and claim a technical reading of some rule will absolve them. Then again, we are on a site run by a VC so what would you expect, of course they're going to tip the scales.
yesterday at 9:33 PM
Please don't post ranting accusations like this. We're accountable to this community every single day, as this case demonstrates. Any time we do anything that seems even a little bit suspect, we hear about it very quickly.
> a mod log will allow some sort of bad actors to do something vague and threatening
I don't know of any time we've said anything like that. Dang has explained plenty of times why we don't publish a moderation log [1]. Mostly it's because we don't want to promote meta-discussion, because the thing we want most here is for discussions to stay on-topic. There are plenty of ways for people to see what we're doing and hold us to account if we get things wrong.
> we are on a site run by a VC so what would you expect, of course they're going to tip the scales
HN is only any use to our bosses if we continue to be the place where the best (i.e., "smartest") hackers come to have the highest-quality discussions about the most important topics, and the best/smartest hackers have the best bullshit detectors, almost by definition. But even if we thought we should deprioritize that consideration and instead "tip the scales" in aid of the narrow commercial interests of our parent organization (leaving aside the flawed presumption that it would work), YC has zero interest in protecting the reputation or commercial interests of the megacorps, which it demonstrates through its actions continually [2,3].
[1] https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=true&que...
[2] https://techcrunch.com/2025/05/13/y-combinator-says-google-i...
[3] https://techcrunch.com/2025/08/22/y-combinator-says-apples-a...
today at 3:46 AM
Make a mod log then if you donāt want complaints about opaque moderation. Iām not ranting you literally edit user parts without notice. Thatās not acceptable where I come from. Iāve seen it personally happening here way too much and your claims that weād notice it are logical fallacies or something. You make sure any discussion like this is down modded into oblivion.
You came here doing exactly what I said youād do, too. Iām done complaining for now but your comment isnāt convincing anyone who complains about your moderation.
Avoiding these meta discussions is what makes me wary of you mods. You guys basically shut down any discussion of moderation here like an iron fist.
today at 5:49 PM
A mod log doesn't solve any of these concerns. People will just argue about whether the mod log is complete or abridged.
today at 5:02 PM
We happily explain all our actions all the time, here in the comments and via email. Thereās no great mystery to what we do and why. We explain things more openly and thoroughly than the moderators of sites with public modlogs do, from what Iāve observed. Weāre also completely open to the public and highly forgiving of people who break the rules but earnestly seek to contribute positively. Unfortunately not everyone is here to contribute positively, but itās not hard to do so for people who want to.
The underlying accusation of bias/manipulation is self-evidently false because it assumes our employerās selfish agenda ā even if you believe thatās what we most care about ā is the opposite to what it actually is.
yesterday at 4:05 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 4:35 PM
I guess it was effectively phrased in the second person.
yesterday at 4:10 PM
"Don't" isn't all that far, it's just one word.
yesterday at 3:56 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 5:02 PM
You could just log in. Seems like you are your own problem.
yesterday at 4:06 PM
Get "uBlock origin" bro and ads go away. Also you can click the archive link that op posted and read it there without paywall.
yesterday at 10:18 PM
Seems a big part of why I was flagged is people not realising the possibility that the archive link wasn't there when I posted the comment.
yesterday at 4:05 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 5:11 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 6:08 PM
How is this at all related to the mafia and anywhere near blackmailling schools?
It would only be blackmail if the service they are gating access to is of significant enough benefit that it causes enough harm to the schools to encourage them to also allow the gemini access, but that's counter to your claim that "nobody needs that company anyway"
Google is a private entity that is allowed to decide how anyone uses their products.
The schools, being entities themselves, are in turn allowed to handle this however they want. Perhaps rolling their own search to encourage learners to rely on better sources. Perhaps blocking AI generated responses. Perhaps blocking search results that advertise products to children.
Or they can just use any of a dozen other search providers.
yesterday at 5:15 PM
yesterday at 5:20 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 4:42 PM
[flagged]
yesterday at 4:46 PM
> How could they possibly do worse with it running?
It's almost always possible to do worse.
yesterday at 4:55 PM
using AI to tell you the answer means you don't actually know or understand the answer. You know the entire point of education
yesterday at 5:15 PM
You can also use AI s an endlessly patient tutor. That could be beneficial.
yesterday at 6:28 PM
is there a way to use it that prevents "tell me the answer", if not that is what enough students will gravitate towards that it will be harmful to society at large. If there is an agent that only works as an infinitely patient tutor, that will under no circumstance do the work for you, then sure. Just have expereience educators dictate the way the agent works and is used, not some marketing dweeb or MBAsshole.
yesterday at 5:28 PM
The real world seems like it might come as a shock to someone who learned for two decades from an endlessly patient computer.
yesterday at 6:24 PM
https://curmudgucation.blogspot.com/2025/06/should-ai-make-s...
> The AI crew's fantasy is that students sitting in front a screen will be motivated because A) the adaptive technology will hit them with exactly the right material for the student and B) shiny! Arnett explains that any dreams of AI-aided motivation are doomed to failure.
> Arnett's explanation is not exactly where I expected we were headed. Human respect is scarce, he argues, because humans only have so much time and attention to parcel out, and so it's valuable. AI has infinite attention resources, can be programed to be always there and always supportive. Arnett argues that makes its feedback worthless in terms of status and respect. ...
> But I think much of what he says here is valuable and valid-- that AI faces a major hurdle in classrooms because it offers no social relationship component, little opportunity to provide students with status or respect. Will folks come up with ways to use AI tools that have those dimensions? No doubt. But the heart of Arnett's argument is an explanation of one more reason that sitting a student in front of an AI-run screen is not a viable future for education.
yesterday at 5:07 PM
That's certainly one outcome. Another is having AI tell you the answer and you understanding why your answer is incorrect. This is not black and white.
yesterday at 6:26 PM
If the Agent is designed for that type of interaction and not "do it for me so i don't have to know the details" then yes, but currently that is not supported so teenagers and children will absolutely use it as a "don't make me think" button
yesterday at 5:52 PM
The current research outcomes seem pretty black and white.
yesterday at 5:12 PM
There are other ways to use AI in a school setting. Grading homework is a tedious and time-consuming task that would likely be simple for an AI to do.
yesterday at 6:25 PM
You still have to double check the Agent's grading as they still make frequent minor mistakes, that while they don't really impact coding as much or can be caught with tests, that is not the case here.
yesterday at 6:42 PM
The actual question to ask is if the agent makes more mistakes than a human being. Grading homework involves reading over similar/identical answers to the same questions over and over, and it is easy for human beings to make mistakes while doing that.
(That is basically the argument for OCR in the postal system -- it does make mistakes but it makes fewer mistakes than human beings.)
yesterday at 11:14 PM
There is a stark difference in sorting addresses and reading a test you wrote in a subject you're an SME/teacher for.
today at 2:57 AM
Have you ever graded tests for an entire class? I did so for two years when I was a PhD student and had to work as a TA. It does not matter if you are an expert in the subject because the problem has nothing to do with expertise, it has to do with how our brains work. The worst case is when most of the class answers the question correctly, and you don't encounter a mistake until you have finished grading most of the tests -- your brain really wants to just keep repeating the same motion (e.g. writing a check mark) and even if you spot the error you might accidentally mark it correct anyway.
Really though, this is missing the point. Yes, grading tests and homework is different from sorting mail, but both are tedious tasks that involve a lot of repetitive actions -- hard for the human brain, but easy for software. Software does not get tired or distracted by other responsibilities (or non-responsibilities). We have already been using software to grade tests for a long time now, but mostly for multiple choice questions; AI will expand the scope of that.
yesterday at 5:49 PM
YMMV, but in my school, teachers can access AI while students (mostly) can't. It's possible to allow AI for teachers and not students.
yesterday at 5:31 PM
Some of the worst performance schools are cyber charter schools, which often promote the idea that they use AI as a personal tutor.
If they could get better results with off-the-shelf tools, I'm pretty sure they would.
(Not 100% sure. Some non-profit charters pay a for-profit management company, which suggests commercial software, where the charter, management company, and software provider are all owned by the same person. They may prefer to make more money than improve student grades.)
yesterday at 6:05 PM
Blocking ai will only cause the students to get left behind. The ai isn't going away.
yesterday at 6:16 PM
AI doesn't belong in schools. Schools are there to teach thinking, creativity, innovation. AI is the opposite of these.
It is a tool, it can be used within boundaries, but it has zero place in teaching.
yesterday at 4:27 PM
It isn't possible for Google to run a websearch query "without AI" and it hasn't been for over 10 years.
yesterday at 4:36 PM
It's incredibly obtuse to pretend not to understand that people object to LLM slop, but not everything that can fall under the broad term of "AI".
today at 2:49 PM
This thread is full of, I don't even know, Google brigadiers?? Like obviously search is powered by algorithms to rank the best results.
The problem is the summary boxes, because there is no incentive to click, scan, find, contextualize, which are at the basis of learning a thing. That's what the objections are aimed at. It's incredible to find this many "oh well but it's the same product now" water carriers here.
yesterday at 4:31 PM
Would you agree that there is a difference between "search results ranked by AI" and "Magic box that blurts out an answer"?
We do want to teach kids how to do searches, to look at and parse results and basically do "online research", right. Not just blindly trust the magic answer box?
yesterday at 5:00 PM
The "magic box" is really just summarizing the top X results, which have been ranked by AI for many years. Everyone has been "blindly trusting" all that for a good while now.
yesterday at 9:50 PM
It's super bad at accurate summarization.
today at 12:18 AM
Every tech starts out pretty bad, then improves over time.
today at 1:24 AM
Yes, and?
Right now it's pretty bad, so Google forcing it on people is quite bad.
It's almost certainly not going to be good enough by the time they start enforcing this.
today at 2:08 AM
And you either deal with it, or find an alternative. I'm pretty sure Google has no intention of pulling back, partly because they know the vast majority of users accept what they serve. And partly because they know many of the screamers will go quiet when it gets good enough; all they have to do is ignore them, and they have more than enough in their coffers to ignore anyone who isn't the US president.
today at 2:15 AM
> And you either deal with it, or find an alternative.
That's true regardless of whether it gets good or not.
> And partly because they know many of the screamers will go quiet when it gets good enough; all they have to do is ignore them
That depends on how long it takes and whether they keep spending the same amount of money per query.
yesterday at 5:24 PM
Reading, evaluating and summarizing results is exactly the skill we want to teach kids.
This is like a book publisher refusing to sell books to schools without including spark notes on the inside cover.
yesterday at 7:19 PM
I remember being taught library skills as a kid. That's what adults back in the day wanted to teach, because we needed to be able to find books to help with assignments and whatnot. And then the Internet and search engines happened and that class is no more. Things and times change.
yesterday at 5:59 PM
Seems reasonable. You can't have a useful search of the modern web without AI.
yesterday at 8:03 PM
That's absurd. Google Search used to work. Now it doesn't.
yesterday at 8:49 PM
There's no going back. You can't use 1998 PageRank on the 2026 web.
yesterday at 9:28 PM
No one's asking for 1998, just 2025.
today at 12:05 AM
Strawman demolished.
yesterday at 7:59 PM
[dead]
yesterday at 6:28 PM
And this is why Google needs to be split in parts. Ads on one side, or many sides as they have purchased so many ads business that they should be further divided, youtube on another side, search in a different one, etc.
Split monopolies so they stop threatening schools, governments and citizens.