today at 3:33 PM
Sad news. First, Openbuilds now this.
Not a surprise to me though since I am operating in the CNC industry I have seen the same struggles and changes, albeit, from a slightly different perspective.
I work with the Smoothieware/Smoothieboard project. It seems, from my observation, that most people are not working with hardware like they were a few years ago. The "homebrew" machines and shadetree makers are becoming few and far between.
The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects. Not only that but people have been convinced that they don't have the ability to make a machine.
Instead of spending time learning something new/valuable (i.e. Reprap) it is now popular to just have someone else do it...be it AI or a factory in another country with subsidies that create massive differences in bottom line.
The ability to make things at home is disappearing. People cannot/will not learn to make their own machines. Companies that make machines that care about their community and customers are disappearing.
Maybe it's by design? I don't know.
today at 6:04 PM
I think maybe your view is too narrow? It's not that people don't want to make a machine, it's that now they don't have to.
When I started hobby CNC a few years ago, the only compact or desktop CNC machines were flimsy Chinese things made entirely of extrusion, expensive machines made for education/prototyping environments and the Carbide3D Nomad (which I ended up buying).
I ended up building a machine from scratch because the original Nomad was too flimsy to really cut metals, even Aluminium.
But in the last few years companies like Makera came along and sell desktop CNC machines that can cut metal for under $6k USD and there's even a toolchanger.
For just a little more, there's a Kickstarter for a 5-axis machine with mist cooling, ATC a wireless probe and it can cut steel and titanium.
And for those that want a DIY project, there seem to be plenty of folks doing CNC conversions of second-hand manual mills.
today at 6:37 PM
Funny you mention Makera.
They use a fork of Smoothieware. [1]
We were happy/surprised to see they shared their mods. It is rare.
[1]https://github.com/MakeraInc/CarveraFirmware
today at 4:21 PM
> The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects.
> The ability to make things at home is disappearing
I do not know what you are talking about.
3D printing at home is more popular than ever. Even families I know who don’t have a computer at home, only their phones, now have 3D printers and use them.
> People cannot/will not learn to make their own machines
I think this is an appeal to 3D printing purity that drove me away from many of the communities. In the early days we all swapped tips and shared reviews of parts (like the Smoothieboard I still have) with other people who liked to build machines because that was the only way to do 3D printing at hobby level prices. When asked what we used the 3D printers for, the joke was that they were used to print parts for our 3D printer. It wasn’t really a joke, though. We spent more time keeping the printers working and trying to tune them than we did printing other things we needed.
That has flipped. Now it’s easy to get a cheap 3D printer and start getting parts out of it without thinking about the printer much. This is great if you’re a person who wants to use the output of the printer. This is boring if you think the value is the process of building and changing the printer hardware all the time.
I’m tired of hearing takes about how this is wrong or bad. Most “makers” want to make other things, not spend their precious free time trying to debug failing prints. There are more opportunities and knowledge available now for people who do want to build their own machines and it’s very cheap. People who want to do that can, but don’t look down upon the people who don’t want to do that.
today at 10:11 PM
It's a lot less of an issue, now, but Linux used to be a "mechanic's hot rod" operating system.
It's like that kid down the block, with the sweet hot rod that rattles the windows, when he drives past, but whenever you drive past his house, the car is up on blocks, and he's working on it.
Working on tools can be a lot of fun, but I like working on stuff that ships, so I prefer tools that don't require much work.
today at 5:20 PM
We had a similar discussion about computers the other day. A lot of us miss the days of tiny memory and optimizing for that.
It takes all kinds and I see no reason to gate keep either way. It's too bad that we do t often segregate around those opinions and don't share as much
today at 5:58 PM
> It takes all kinds and I see no reason to gate keep either way.
Gatekeeping is a good way to describe it. This happens to a lot of niche hobbies that go mainstream. Some of the old ingroup that were into the hobby before it was cool get irrationally angry at the new waves of adoption because they're in it for different reasons.
I don't care why someone is in a hobby. If you want to do it the easy way, good for you. Nothing has been taken away from those who want to do it the hard way. It's much easier to get started building custom machines now than it was when I was starting out.
today at 6:24 PM
> I do not know what you are talking about.
What are you talking about? Show me one survey that shows DIY crafts as a whole becoming more popular in the past several decades. It's just not a thing. People increasingly don't have room for it, computers and cell phones have won as a way to spend the bulk of our free time, and even if you want to create, the primary outlet is the digital world.
> 3D printing at home is more popular than ever
Sure, but that's a given because the technology didn't exist until very recently. I can also say that Tesla Cybertruck is more popular than ever, but that doesn't mean much, right.
> Even families I know who don’t have a computer at home, only their phones, now have 3D printers and use them.
A vanishingly tiny proportion of families in the US or in the EU own 3D printers and use them.
today at 7:53 PM
> What are you talking about? Show me one survey that shows DIY crafts as a whole becoming more popular in the past several decades.
Entry level 3D printer sales (the kind you buy from Prusa or Bambu Labs) have been surging for years.
You could Google this and find a thousand articles about it. The entry-level segment has grown massively and continues to expand https://3dprintingindustry.com/news/context-industrial-growt...
> Sure, but that's a given because the technology didn't exist until very recently.
I built my first 3D printer over 10 years ago. The latest printer I bought is much more refined, but it's still stepper motors, belts, a gear driven extruder, and a nozzle like my original printer. The technology has been around for a long time. The popularity explosion is recent.
> A vanishingly tiny proportion of families in the US or in the EU own 3D printers and use them.
We're talking about hobbies and that's how hobbies work, yes.
The hobby is growing significantly, though. Arguing that most households don't have a 3D printer is just a strawman.
today at 6:45 PM
A vanishing small number of people ever did those things. Many people owned tablesaws but they rarely used them to make something for fun. They owned the dream and subscribed to the magazines but they only rarely made anything.
today at 8:19 PM
Yeah, unfortunately you are correct. Life's too busy nowadays and there's not enough time to do a quarter of the things one wishes especially projects that require planning and months to implement.
Moreover, the reduction in or loss of manual trades (woodworking, machining, toolmaking, etc.) whether at home or in industry, amounts to an overall deskilling of the citizenry which has strategic implications.
today at 5:18 PM
> There are more opportunities and knowledge available now for people who do want to build their own machines and it’s very cheap.
And what happens if China decides that it is no longer in their interest to allow Americans access to cheap aluminum extrusions, hotends, motors, and controllers?
Between the American tariffs and Chinese prioritization of 3d printing in a past five year plan American hobbyists and small scale producers are in a potential bind.
today at 5:59 PM
> And what happens if China decides that it is no longer in their interest to allow Americans access to cheap aluminum extrusions, hotends, motors, and controllers?
Then home 3D printing will be the least of our concerns? What kind of question is this?
today at 3:45 PM
> The lie has been heavily sold to the maker community that you are "wasting your time if you make something yourself" since it is cheaper to offshore even small 3d prints and machining projects.
I've seen what people go through when they operate 3D printers. The impression I have is that they still make 2D inkjet printers look like paragons of reliability.
today at 3:48 PM
I wouldn't trade that time spent on my printers for anything. I wrote a post about this recently [1]
There was way more valuable things learned in the process than just making Benchy.
For years I have been trying to tell people this. The value of Reprap was not just "to have a printer".
[1] https://www.robosprout.com/thank-you-reprap-for-all-of-it/
today at 4:24 PM
Some people want to have an experience with their printer. Some people want it to be an appliance. If you wanted an appliance, and got an experience, you're going to be disappointed.
For people who genuinely wanted the experience of exploring 3D printers, like yourself, I'm very happy that those people got that experience.
For myself, just as I want to print documents and not have adventures with inkjet printers, I want to make things and not have adventures with 3D printers. Which is why I have no plans to own a 3D printer.
today at 9:06 PM
My Elegoo Centauri Carbon and Flashforge AD5X have been pretty much plug in, load filament, calibrate/configure for that filament, print.
It or a similar printer (CoreXY, enclosed if you're going to print filaments which warrant that) from a brand w/ a good reputation should work as well.
today at 4:13 PM
I recently bought a Bambu Lab A1 printer. I went specifically with Bambu Lab because everything I read said that was the better choice if you want something low maintenance and easy to set up even if it’s not as open as some of the alternatives.
It’s stuck in the auto calibration stage. It gets halfway through then it stops with a generic error message. The UI around this is really clunky. I’ve tried searching online, asking Claude and nothing. I emailed customer support and they came back with cryptic instructions that assume familiarity with the internals of the machine.
I decided to leave this for a day when I wasn’t too mentally drained from work to debug issues in my free time and instead the machine has been collecting dust ever since.
Maybe it was a mistake to get a Bambi Lab? I thought it was the more turn key option but it hasn’t been my experience.
today at 8:23 PM
Your experience is unusual for a Bambu. I know of numerous people who have purchased one and you are the only one who didn't have it "just work".
today at 4:27 PM
I’ve had several printers over more than a decade. Even the most reliable new units can still be difficult to debug little things. My cousin’s family got a Bambu printer with no technical or mechanical experience and gets it working well most of the time, but there are still things that can bite you like prints not sticking to the bed because it has oils on it or filament breaking in the feed path because PLA absorbs moisture from the air and becomes brittle. A modicum of attention can keep these problems in check but the operator has to do some reading and learning.
There is another set of people who are in 3D printing because they like the experience of debugging and improving the printer as much or more than the final prints they get from it. The most hardcore 3D printing people I know don’t actually print much other than 3D benchies and test towers because their fun comes from playing with the machine and trying new parts. Those people build a different set of printer types than the plug and play units used by most casual makers.
today at 3:56 PM
Crazy as it sounds, that’s the opposite of my personal experience.
today at 4:10 PM
Yeah in the four years I’ve had my Prusa it’s had basically no problems.
They’re a pain in the ass if you buy bottom of the barrel crap with sloppy tolerances for $100 I guess, but the same is true of regular printers.
today at 4:30 PM
I had a cheap Ender 3 Pro for years. It had occasional issues, but they were fairly easy to solve due to the large user base. It was great to learn on since you had to learn the concepts and do some stuff like leveling manually. So even the cheap stuff can work fine.
today at 6:40 PM
I think it’s never been a better time to be an at-home maker.
I built 3 Voron printers because there wasn’t a way to get close to that performance at a price I would choose to pay. I hand-converted a HF mill to DRO then to 2-axis CNC.
I can buy printers that are 90-95% as good for well under $1000 and 75-85% as good for $350 now.
CNC routers are readily available and good. Laser cutters are readily available, reasonably cheap, and good.
I just don’t see a broad migration to importing maker parts (other than PCBB/PCBA, which is phenomenal).
today at 4:08 PM
I feel like this has been a talking point for as long as off-the-shelf printers aimed at hobbyists have existed. Calling them AI factories is a bit off the mark imo, there are plenty of hobbyists that learn CAD and want to make their own stuff, but don't want to build their own printer. The kind of people who are interested in reprap are absolutely still around, and I really don't see that community going dissolving because of the rise of capable commercial printers.
today at 4:14 PM
That wasn't exactly what was said...
"it is now popular to just have someone else do it...be it AI or a factory in another country"
And sure there are some people interested in reprap but they have been scattered to the wind. #reprap IRC has become an advertising/support channel for commercial printers. If you go to most of the channels/forums where the development used to happen and mention you want to build a printer you will be flooded with responses about how stupid that is and provided with names/links of the printers you should be buying. Making things is a fool's errand.
Maybe my observations were different...maybe not...but from what I saw at about 2016 the whole DIY machine thing switched.
today at 4:22 PM
I believe part of it is the cost. It used to be too expensive to get something like a decent commercial 3D printer (though at the same time). Now you can get one for less than the cost of RepRap components back in the day, so it is stupid to do it if you just want to print stuff out (it might even be more expensive, and will likely produce worse prints).
If, however, you want to learn how to build one, or just have an experience of building your own tool you'll use to create stuff, it is most definitely not stupid to do it.
With 3D printing becoming mainstream, you'll have fewer people in those communities who support and live that approach though, and you'll need to look harder to find documentation and like-minded people.
today at 3:49 PM
I'm not sure if it's that simple. Many space-intensive DIY hobbies are on the retreat simply because more people are moving into cities or very dense suburbs where you have no practical opportunity to, say, build a woodworking shop. Metalworking was even more severely impacted, for obvious reasons.
Also, long before mail-order offshore manufacturing, people have been lured away from most of this by the promise of 3D printing. Every other techie I know owns a 3D printer. Most have not made anything interesting with it because they soon learn that the real difficulty is materials science and 3D design. But as a nerd, it's the thing you're supposed to own. In contrast, I know maybe four people in the SF Bay Area who are into woodworking, metalsmithing, CNC, or stuff like that.
I don't see mail-order prototyping as a conspiracy... it's more of a culmination of the DIY community chasing the mirage they were sold on in the early 2010s. I still remember the HN claims: home manufacturing revolution! It's the beginning of a brand new economy, why would anyone buy anything anymore when you can just click "print"... with some amusing parallels to how some folks now talk about building your own software with AI.
The mail-order stuff isn't evil insofar that it may allow some people to make things they couldn't make before. On the flip side, it's a very inefficient way to learn, so I think it will reduce hardware literacy among those who could afford a garage workshop.
FWIW, I think the same goes for AI-assisted hardware design. On one hand, I see people who otherwise wouldn't be DIYing getting into DIY: "I asked Claude and it one-shotted this rectangular enclosure for me, it's amazing!", "Claude made this RP2350 breakout board for me, how cool is that". But I also see established DIYers getting a degree of brain rot.
today at 4:01 PM
we have had a home manufacturing revolution, though, and making every kind of hardware is crazy accessible, look at the explosion of niche products in every single hobby space over the past ten years
I miss absolutely nothing about etching my own single layer PCBs at home
today at 4:06 PM
First, PCBs: neither do I, I'm not sure why you're assuming that's the position I want to take. This has nothing to do with 3D printing or mail-order metal parts.
Second, I don't think there's a revolution for the general population. Your archetypal middle-aged dad / curious teenager are DIYing less than 20 years ago, which in turn was less than 40 years ago. The stats here are clear, most of "garage" occupations are on the decline. Less space, higher costs, more emphasis on safety. Some hobbies, such as backyard chemistry, are effectively gone. Shop classes in most schools are gone. Making your own bookshelf or building a radio from a kit is no longer a rite of passage.
Third, the "explosion of niche products" - maybe, but I think some of it is just visibility. Kickstarter, HN, Hack-a-Day, and so on. Before that, we had hobby journals for woodworking, electronics, etc, and they were always full of ads for niche gear. You just weren't seeing the totality of it in a doom-scroll loop. Visibility has benefits, but my point is that the qualitative change isn't as profound.
today at 4:24 PM
I actually believe it's mostly about cost. Things you'd DIY in the past are now crazily accessible: DIY is usually more expensive than getting a commodity product.
today at 4:35 PM
Re: factory in another country: I use and recommend craftcloud (Germany company that facilitates having your uploaded model be printed wherever and however you choose (and see prices of course). I am always able to find companies in the USA to print my designs. I had repeated good results with https://hudsoncreativegroup.com/ in AR. The only reason I haven’t done it myself is because I don’t have time to do it often enough and each time I get back into it I have to relearn about the material choice tradeoffs. If I had a better grasp of these things and get a less demanding tech job/replaced by AI :), I would research buying one.
today at 6:30 PM
Steel and aluminum costs way more than it did last year, as the tariffs are hitting the small manufacturers first.
Openbuilds was a slotted 2020 china rail kit company, and was very clear about community members being not allowed to post unrelated projects. There was nothing really "open" about their site, but it was more of a Mecano like product.
Sherline CNC mills were never as solid as Taig, but the mini-lathes were workable for small hobby projects (had mine for years till upgrading to a South Bend antique.)
3D printers are easier to use given they handle geometry impossible for milling. If I have a choice between printing or cutting a herringbone gear, than printing wins every time (time cost is zero for automation.)
There is also the export restriction on 5-axis machine CAM software now. Small CNC machines are a great way to learn, but most kids no longer have $7k to spend on a hobby. If you have long term space on property, than a full-sized worn old mill is a better investment (just don't climb mill if you want reasonable tolerances.)
The problem isn't just hobby mills/lathes, but many firms went under in the past few decades. Domestic manufacturers have mostly lost the skills needed to build things themselves. It is funny seeing old 1950's US milling machines (sold as scrap iron) still running small business in the India industrial strip.
Hobby 3D metal-printing + EDM/Grinder technology will probably fill the void, but people are going to see more suboptimal oddball composites.
>Maybe it's by design? I don't know.
Unlikely, just other people making money off of peoples short-term thinking. =3
Even China had a hard time keeping its milling factories fed over the years. The only difference was their government recognized the strategic importance. It is why you can now find drill/tap/chamfer combination carbide end mills in every metric size you could want.
>The ability to make things at home is disappearing
It is changing, for example instead of using noisy cutters people use shears to cut SAC305 solder bars. As in a hobby class 7 zone building space, your neighbors don't want to deal with noise, dust, or weird smells etc.
One will also see more low cost 3D printed mild steel in home 3D printers, as the amount of physical space needed to print an engine block for example is smaller than a fridge. The future is here, but people in the US will have to wait a few more years. You already know why =3
today at 7:53 PM
> i.e. Reprap
Nah, we just went with Bambu. No shade to the reprap community but my enjoyment of the hobby is with the printing of models, not tinkering with my machine constantly.
The amount of failed builds I got with the prusa xl due to its tool changer meant it was the last prusa my household will ever get
today at 4:32 PM
Do you expect the homeowner that needs to mow their lawn to build their own lawnmower? How about the "tech savvy" homeowner that wants an automated lawnmower? Should they be derided for buying one of the robot mowers instead of building their own? Should the person that needs a hammer and nails to build a raised bed for their gardening hobby be required to make the hammer or the nails, in the name of "learning something new/valuable"?
It comes down to the fact that these things are tools. Now that reasonably affordable "turnkey" or "off the shelf" options are available, what you're really seeing is the divide between those wanting building the tool itself as their hobby, and those that just want a tool to use on their other hobbies. There was less of a divide previously because for most people, the "just buy one" option simply didn't exist. Now it does.
I spent a lot of time over the years wire-wrapping circuits, then manually laying out and etching/making circuit boards, then using software to do the layouts while still etching/drilling boards myself, then learning and switching the bulk of my projects to surface-mount. It was a necessary part of making electronic bits for stuff I wanted, but I didn't enjoy that part. Now that I can draw something up, send it off and for a few bucks have professionally manufactured multi-layer boards in days/weeks, with many/most components already placed and soldered, why wouldn't I cut out the part I don't enjoy?
I played with 3d printers off and on from about 2006 onwards, though I never kept one around for any real length of time. I found that while I really wanted the capabilities, I didn't want "building and keeping a 3d printer running" to be my hobby. 20 years later, there are options that don't require printer maintenance to be it's own hobby, and I'm much more willing to keep one around.
I've had a couple Chinese-made mini-mills since 2002 -- Sieg X2s, if I remember the old naming scheme correctly, though they were sold by various importers with their own names/model numbers. I converted one to CNC operation in 2004. While I appreciate the work done by others that I could learn from, I did not enjoy the process or the project. If there had been a reasonably affordable "turnkey" option with the capabilities I wanted, I would have 100% taken it. If I needed another one now, with the options available, there's no way I'd bother to build my own. Even then, I would have gone with sherline's early cnc offerings -- they fit my budget, but were just too small for what I wanted to do.
My first CNC router was scratch-built in the early 2000s. My current one came in a crate 4 years ago, and cost about half of what building a new one with the same capabilities from scratch would have. Instead of spending a several months' worth of weekends building it, I spent one weekend unpacking it and setting it up, another fine-tuning it and the software settings, and then was able to start using it for projects I enjoyed.
The ability for people to make things at home is expanding, just not in the way you'd like to see. That isn't a bad thing.
At the end of the day, time is what is ultimately valuable, and I don't have nearly as much of it as I did when I was younger. At this point, I'd much rather spend what time I do have enjoying my hobbies and creating the things I want to create, not building tools or suffering through tasks I hate simply because someone else thinks that is the important part. It seems I'm not the only one.
As for companies that "care" disappearing, well, that's just the current business environment. When the only measure of success that's deemed important is the stock value -- or potential stock value, in the case of startups -- customer service is an expense that can be cut to inflate next months' quarterly report. In exchange, the concept of customer loyalty is dying as well.
today at 7:41 PM
I own a lathe and mill from them, both converted to CNC. Sadly their products have changed little in 30+ years. Their precision parts have a use in some applications but it's vastly overshadowed by the cheap parts available from Asia (including India now).
3D printers, laser cutters and benchtop CNC routers have the taken over the lion share of what hobbyists (and some professionals) used to do with these machines. Mine are just collecting dust while my 3D printers crank out parts every day.
today at 7:59 PM
What parts are from India? I do a lot of CNC work and parts from India are acceptable but most importantly dirt cheap.
today at 6:37 PM
There’s some other threads in this discussion bemoaning the lack of diy machine builders…and, I am really unclear how this Sherline issue is related? To me, this is a question of value for money. Sherline products were always interesting, but also nowhere near competitive as machines. With controllers like masso and acorn available, converting a mill like a grizzly, precision Mathews or even a Bridgeport are just way more value for money.
The other end of the spectrum is tools like the Langmuir bed mill/router or the avid benchtop routers with available 4 pole spindles.
There’s a lot of options, closed loop steppers are sub $100, servos from DMM or teknic are readily available and awesome.
Sherline has a product set that just felt like a compromise on everything.
In the last decade, I’ve built 3 routers, rebuilt a bed mill, converted a Bridgeport, and am currently building an automated beam saw. All the options in the market are drastically better than they were 15 years ago.
It’s sad to see a fixture of the community going out of business, but it also a reflection that the business is different now. Given the many different kits and options available, it just doesn’t make sense to buy small work envelope machines for most people.
today at 6:58 PM
Sherline was good for businesses and labs that needed a light mill for rare use. Hobby users weren’t a good market because they’re always searching for used deals and conversions.
I haven’t shopped the Sherline catalog in a long time but this appears to be a case of a company failing to keep up with changing market conditions. Depending on how old the owners were, that may have been not too unreasonable. Some of these companies get founded by people who put a lot of work into establishing the small business, make their wealth, and then make the choice to let the business continue operating as a lifestyle business with low inputs until the income drops too low to pay the expenses. Not every company is designed to be a multi generational juggernaut.
today at 4:47 PM
My wife is in manufacturing and although not in US, working for a company having production in US, EU, Asia etc. Her 1-minute comments why it's increasingly difficult to produce something in EU and US.
Bureaucracy - the levels of it are insane especially in EU, but US is not far behind. The loss of local partners and environment - every little thing you can do locally makes production easier and cheaper. Failure to attract young people – although production is cool, it's not Youtube influencer level cool and industry relies increasingly on older generations. Education - the quality of it is sinking almost all over the world. Insecurity - partly just part of times, but mostly coming from regulation, taxes etc.
today at 5:36 PM
>> it's not Youtube influencer level cool and industry relies increasingly on older generations
Usually it means the pay is crap, the schedule is bad and nobody is willing to invest into training. Why should young people select such career?
today at 9:30 PM
Strongly disagree on that last part. Unlike software engineering, where training is nearly non-existent and we expect everyone to show to their first job interview knowing about the big-O complexity of sorting algorithms, traditional manufacturing has a robust tradition of apprenticeship and training on the job.
It also has much better and more predictable hours than, say, the ever-popular gaming industry.
You're right that low pay is an issue, but pay is crap in part because of outsourcing. Any machine shop in the US is competing with China to an extent that, oddly, we don't actually see in the software space. The West is mostly using Western-made software, and outside of that, only India is invited to the club (and even that only as a subcontractor).
But a lot of it is also just culture / parenting. Every parent wants their kid to become a software engineer, a lawyer, or a doctor. There's basically zero pride in being a machinist.
today at 10:22 PM
There'd be pride if it paid similarly to a doctor.
today at 3:34 PM
Real bummer I have their manual lathe and mill and have made a lot of things it would have been impossible to make without the ability to machine (even at small scale their machines could do).
One reason why I bought sherline is the company was still in business and creating so many accessories.
I guess I'll be trying to buy stuff off of eBay or something like I would have been doing had I bought Chinese stuff.
Speaking of which does anyone know the details of their small 60 degree carbide inserts? I assume that don't make those themselves.
today at 9:35 PM
That's a shame, I was considering getting one after seeing Chris of Clickspring recommend them. Hobby machinists are used to using machines built by defunct manufacturers, so I'm sure plenty will stay in circulation.
today at 3:34 PM
> Unfortunately, the manufacturing environment has changed dramatically. The effects of COVID, increasing manufacturing and operating costs, and significant changes in consumer purchasing habits have made it increasingly difficult for a small American manufacturer such as Sherline to maintain the workforce and production levels necessary to remain competitive.
Can’t help but wonder if “operating costs” include tariffs and other policy decisions by the current administration that have driven up costs for everyone.
today at 3:44 PM
Speaking from my personal observations...
It is not just tariffs. The cost of living in the US, especially housing, has approximately doubled in my area since 2019. There is a massive overinvestment in real estate. When housing costs go up it forces companies to pay their employees more to adjust which then drives up the COGS. This becomes a feedback loop because the real estate investors see the prices go up and say "well we have to raise rents because COGS are going up."
Competing with any offshore becomes impossible (especially when compared to countries which subsidize their production). Companies close instead of attempting to compete. Why would you when simply investing in real estate, crypto or AI would net more money? The parts needed to produce in the US are typically not made in the US.
Tariffs hurt...a lot...the companies I work with directly (including mine) have been struggling with them for a decade now. But it is a lot more than that...there is a general lack of interest in making things that are real. Plus, the cost if you attempt to do so puts you in a position where you cannot be competitive.
today at 4:12 PM
+1 on the tarrifs and the cost of living. We actually left the USA and moved to the Caribbean because our R&D was being burned up in tarrifs; actually cheaper to move the operation. It’s stupid to raise tarrifs overnight when there are no comparable domestic alternatives. A 5 year, stable plan to ramp tariffs? Sure. That builds a runway for local supply and transition. Random tariff adjustment between 0-200% changing every month? Absolute poison for innovation, and local suppliers can’t ramp on chaos.
The cost of living, also, needs a reframe. The real truth there is that most people, who live paycheck to paycheck, are half as prosperous as they were a couple of years ago. Think about that. The Majority of an entire country became twice as poor practically overnight. It’s not cost of living rising , it’s standard of living being halved for most Americans. It’s not a small thing, and it will have reprocussions for decades. A population on strong retrograde prosperity does not innovate, does not invent, does not plan for the future. It’s basically terminal cancer.
No doubt innovation will rise once the ashes cool, but that’s more like what we are seeing in Eastern Europe, admirable and significant, but no equivalence whatsoever to the economic juggernaut that the USA once was. (And still is, for now)
Maybe automation will turn that around, but who then is the beneficiary of a fleet of millions (billions?) of corporate owned general purpose humanoid robots? That’s a big part of what my startup is working on ; making that phase generally useful to regular people, not just corporate giants.
today at 6:06 PM
Something in this is contradictory and just hoping for a clarification - over investment in real estate should drop costs. I assume you mean under investment leading to prices requiring an overly burdensome amount of personal investment in housing?
today at 6:34 PM
I think a more clear statement would be collusion/manipulation in the rental market. Both commercial and residential.
In my town there is a constant raising of rent. People moving away, tons of new overpriced apartments largely vacant. Huge number of short term rentals. Affordable houses are torn down to make condos which are owned by people who don't live there (vacant most of the year, held as investment).
So many vacant commercial units with prices that don't match what businesses can afford to pay...but it drives up the rest of the rental prices to people going "site unseen". If you were not from here you would assume there is a huge demand for those buildings at that rate...this is not true.
These investors are not planning on using these units to help the housing crisis...and they have the ability to "stay irrational longer than renters can stay solvent". Overall this will come back to bite them...but in the short term they can reap the rewards.
Some commercial loans allow "interest only payments" if the unit is vacant. This allows investors to buy several locations...keep half vacant at higher prices and drive up the rents in the area. Through collusion and catering to out of area investors (who don't know better) they can hold the properties for a few years and double their money without every renting the building or paying on the principal of their loan.
This is what I mean by "overinvestment". Locally...why would you invest in a company (US or not) when you can just call dibs on essential services and rake in cash.
My county last I checked was over 35% retired. Most of those who I speak with moved here from out of state and bought multiple houses with the goal of renting them out to pay for their retirement...but when COGS go up that means rent needs to also to support the lifestyle they are accustomed to. Renters are expected to "quit buying coffees" so they can pay the rent...but nobody seems to ask the real estate investor to take personal responsibility for their part in the problem.
I know people say more investment in real estate drives prices down...but that is not the case. Nobody here is building housing to make it cheaper...they are building it because they heard they can get more money than last year. "If they build a new building it should be worth more than an old one right?" So prices keep climbing. Average renter here makes $30-40k (last I checked) but to live in a way that allows you to save you need to make $70k/year.
There is no housing shortage (in my area). There is an "affordable housing" shortage...and that will not be solved by building more unless there are major changes made to the way commercial loans (or personal ethics) are handled.
The only hope is people learn to practice ethical capitalism.
today at 7:24 PM
Had to screenshot this as it's easily the best articulation of the housing problem I've ever read.
today at 8:15 PM
I think you’re touching on a lot of things here which form a self reinforcing web
A) pensions don’t exist so people need cashflow to retire. You either save enough capital that you can build an annuity for yourself or you have cash flow investments and the lowest effort one is rental properties.
B) taxes for capital gains on a home that’s appreciated enough incentive rolling your home into a rental then rolling it into more rentals as it appreciates further afield into lower cost areas. The basis isn’t taxable as long as you roll it to another investment, and as prices go up, you are incentivized to move it into more properties to diversify at lower rents but more units. As that effect continues as people retire the cost of rentals further from the city core keeps rising. An easy fix would be to raise the capital gains deduction for a primary residence to incentive retirees to outright sell and take the annuity option, which is actually easier overall but the capital gains tax makes it unattractive today.
C) Obviously the financing your described, but compounded by private equity and hedge fund dominance in the unit and development rental market skewing towards higher margin lower occupancy developments. The marginal cost of a mass produced “luxury” rental allows for a lot of vacancy, compounded by the IO and other benefits to reduce vacancy load costs. There are also tax benefits to vacancy that improve as your portfolio gets larger. I think this is more than the retiree effect honestly, I think funds dominate large developments now and increasingly unit level portfolios.
D) The rezoning effect is IMO making it worse because it’s making the optionality of low density developments greater allowing for land value appreciation that wouldn’t happen otherwise because of (C). It’s taking a property with lower utility and making it more valuable for a larger development, but there’s no incentive to make the development more affordable per unit. Instead it increases the price per square foot of property value, increasing costs for everyone, while marginally increasing units but they’re constructed and priced to keep price per square foot of livable areas equal or increasing.
I think (A) can’t improve without a real social security system that replaces pensions. (B) can’t improve without tax reform realizing the nominal cutoffs don’t account for inflation and aren’t “rich” taxes any more but retiree taxes. (C) is probably intractable without socialist regulations which are perceived as unfair, and are hard to craft in a way that is not in fact unfair or have unintended consequences (D) is hard because it’s actually a demonstration of the unintended consequences of regulation and ethical capitalism - but the effect is paradoxical.
These are all structurally hard problems and they aren’t made better by the rate of global population growth. There are way more people today than there were before, and economic activity is much denser than before. The urban areas are crushed, and the rural areas empty except for a hoary crust of MAGA with disproportionate state and federal power. It is frustrating all over - and I don’t see an end state that is very positive.
today at 8:38 PM
Your points seem to be valid. I don't have a solution either.
Where I live used to be the rural area that people made fun of you for being from (Idaho). Also, my county is 70%+ MAGA voters. So I understand your point about disproportionate amount of power...that is another topic entirely (as is the Redoubt movement and other things attempting to profit off the imbalance).
This is happening everywhere around me. Montana is just as bad. Locals have nowhere to go and cannot afford to stay.
I don't have a solution...just pointing out my observations of the issues I have encountered personally.
today at 4:49 PM
Tip of the hat to Australian Harold Clisby. https://www.lathes.co.uk/clisby/index.html
Well done sir.
today at 4:36 PM
I'd like to throw an idea to those who know better than I do.
Ever since I started living on my own I've lived in apartments, none of which had a backyard (one of them had a parking lot). None of my friends owns a house either. I'm the perfect customer for this and I'd love to do my own projects (two of which require a lathe!) but I simply don't have the space.
Is this just me? Or is the disappearance of the hobby garage a real phenomenon? A 3D printer is fairly limited in what it allows, but it also doesn't throw sawdust in the center of my living room.
today at 5:11 PM
This is generally what a makerspace is for. I don’t know what the (inter)national landscape is like for them, but I have a small 8’x8’ studio space at the makerspace in my city, which also has a full wood shop, metal shop, and tons of rapid prototyping tools (3d printers, vinyl cutter, etc). I live in a 1BR apartment downtown and the makerspace is in an industrial district that is a 5-minute bike ride away, and it’s basically my “garage”, just shared with 30 other studios and probably 200 non-studio members who come and go.
today at 5:37 PM
The US is kind of "collapsing" in third spaces both public and private, but especially public due to funding cuts.
today at 5:28 PM
What is the best replacement for hobbyists?
today at 9:22 PM
Taig maybe?
(ob. discl., I work for a hobbyist CNC company, but we don't offer a 4th axis or lathe)
today at 8:18 PM
complacent consumers.
Oh wait you meant something else,
Myself I am biased towards antique manual machines, if you are not in a hurry you can push them beyond what we might expect.
today at 3:34 PM
Wow, what a disappointment. I’ve found it funny over the years when people are shocked to hear me talking about machining, when they themselves have woodworking tools. Cutting metal, cutting wood, even cutting paper - all useful for making and fixing.
I earned an MSME without ever learning to actually make things, so once I could afford it I bought a Sherline CNC mill and taught myself to use it. I made many mistakes but got there. I used it just last week to make a wind gauge mounting bracket for a 70 year old sailboat.
I liked that it was made in the USA and (at the time, pre mainstream internet) had a great community to learn from.
I know there are other options still, but Sherline has a fond place in my heart for how easy they made it to get started.
today at 4:10 PM
I also think Sherline machines have good value. Were they the cheapest, no, but they actually worked really well in my experience for their size. I only have their manual lathe, but it was a MUCH higher quality machine than my larger 7x14 from china. It just feels like everything is either a race to the bottom, enshittification and/or both right now.
today at 7:59 PM
Sad but I have to say they just stood still for 20 years and tried catching up in the last 5 that never works out.
today at 4:26 PM
I want a small lathe and mill. The prices are just too high to justify with my limited use. Instead, I use a 3D printer and I'm making a CNC router.
today at 4:41 PM
You may have already ruled it out, but many communities have maker spaces where expensive equipment that might normally be out of reach is available on a shared basis. Some universities may also have ways to use their maker spaces on weekends or when classes are not in session.
today at 4:43 PM
This is too bad. I've got both their mill and their lathe, and they've been great for making replacement parts for antique clocks.
today at 4:27 PM
How much is because of Chinese clones/stealing of IP thus making manufacturing in the US cost prohibitive?
today at 4:43 PM
Most of it.
today at 7:57 PM
no one bothered to clone Sherline. Cheap mini mills and lathes that were the same cost, but were made out of actual castings and used more standard tools totally undercut Sherline.
today at 8:01 PM
That’s my point
today at 5:01 PM
Sad to see racist yellow scare bogeyman stuff going on at every little thing. You really think Sherline had some amazing hobby lathe IP that was just so far intellectually beyond what an educational powerhouse of a country with 1.6 billion people could ever come up with?
today at 5:08 PM
Yes, I agree that China can copy Sherline’s IP and it’s a form of theft. An estimated 70-80% of the parts can probably be made in China. If you would like a breakdown I can provide it.
Sherline, for example, specifies spindle nose runout of 0.0005 inch or less and spindle end play around 0.0002 inch or less, using two 20-mm ball bearings with adjustable preload. That’s only about 13 µm runout. A Chinese factory can absolutely manufacture that.
Manufacturers such as SIEG took conventional lathe architecture and mass-produced it.
There is nothing original going on there lots of copying
today at 8:38 PM
If you can quote spindle runout, you know perfectly well that there's no meaningful IP in this market segment. That would have been achievable by any number of manufacturers a hundred years ago.
It's a pure manufacturing cost play to make something precise enough, rigid enough, and light enough[0] while being inexpensive enough for the market segment it's aimed at.
Is it a bummer that a US manufacturer went out of business trying to make money at that play? Yes. Is there anything nefarious going on with IP theft? Absolutely not.
[0] This is being sold to customers who don't hire riggers to move their machines.
today at 9:00 PM
how does a small US manufacturer compete when a foreign producer can duplicate 70–80% of the functional product at a fraction of the cost?
today at 9:21 PM
They can't. But how is that unfair? It's literally a choice we made.
And it's the one thing that unites every mainstream politician against Trump - they can't agree on tons of stuff, other than that we definitely should not be using tariffs to defend local manufacturers against Chinese (or any other) imports. I've been assured that those jobs are "not coming back." Well, big surprise - they're also not going to stop disappearing.
today at 9:43 PM
I agree some policy choices were made to get us in this situation. Biden largely left the first Trump era tariffs in place. The disagreements are on the broadness of them
today at 6:01 PM
But isn't this completely fine ? The US became an industrial powerhouse by doing the same. Even barred foreign inventors from obtaining parents in the US. The U.S. Patent Act of 1793 was explicitly structured to favor domestic industrial growth at the expense of foreign inventors. Provided total legal immunity within the U.S. for commercializing pirated ideas. Only when the US became #1, did international protection of its patents became a priority.
China merely followed the American approach towards industrial success.
today at 6:04 PM
I don’t think it’s completely fine to steal others technologies and products no. There are ways to be competitive and in an ethical manner
today at 9:35 PM
The idea that ideas can be stolen and that doing so is wrong is fairly new and somewhat "unnatural". So the ethics of "stealing ideas" are not entirely well-defined. I think the only thing that almost everyone agrees on is that the person who had an idea first (or at least popularized it) should get recognition for it.
today at 9:16 PM
This isn't "clones/copying," but rather "Chinese people making things." It isn't like they're stealing our exclusive "lathe technology." They're just making lathes.
It's certainly destructive to local companies, but that's what tariffs are for. If you think we should be making lathes, then throw tariffs on countries that make them cheaper. If that just moves the pressure to a consumer who still can't afford local lathes, stop handing free money to stockholders and real estate owners and start handing it to people who buy things.
today at 10:06 PM
This is all a bit of a strawman. Lathe technology as a concept isn’t being disputed as stolen. Tariffs don’t fix the copying problem. My point is the country in general has a policy of copying and stealing
today at 9:26 PM
today at 6:35 PM
I also found the GP ridiculous. China probably made more lathes this year than the US has had in its entire history. You can get a complete lathe chuck assembly for 25 bucks. A small casting for maybe double that. I bet you could build a functional system for 100 or less at a quantity of one, including logistics. And if you knew what you were doing and had a mill, hand tools or a 3D printer to start with, within 3 days. They do not need to steal anything, they already are the world's most knowledgeable nation regarding machining fundamentals, supply chain, design tradeoffs, and maintenance. They have more trained machinists than anyone. The notion Sherline had any unique IP or that China needed to copy them is laughable.
today at 8:54 PM
I worked for a North American company that moved manufacturing of precision industrial equipment to China to reduce costs circa 2006.
There was a lot of knowledge transferred and training as part of that. For what its worth we previously had trained our North American partners. China could definitely not make our equipment themselves at that point in time. We did retain some key technologies but most of it was moved over.
I don't see how anyone can deny that the Chinese got a lot of the know-how as part of the mass transfer of production to China. 90% of their manufacturing know-how is from the west.
If the point is that Sherline specifically today doesn't have any IP they might care about- sure. It's been copied/reverse engineered/"stolen" a long time ago. I don't know when the Chinese entered the hobbyist machining market but when they did I'm sure copying existing designs wasn't exactly a barrier, or stealing trade secrets, or ignoring patents.
today at 5:45 PM
Mods: can we just link to the actual announcement instead of a blog: https://www.sherline.com/an-important-message-to-our-sherlin...
today at 8:01 PM
I considered their manual mill when I first wanted to get into CNC but then realized that a manual mill makes no sense for anything really anymore. Anything short of a CNC is a waste of time.
today at 9:25 PM
There's a lot to be said for a manual approach for certain tasks.
For an extreme example of partisanship on this, see the Youtube channel "Inheritance Machining"
today at 6:18 PM
> When we took over the company in 2017…
It was bought out by employees in 2017 and it seems like they weren't able to manage it successfully. The two that acquired it were well over 70 when they did so, so I guess this isn't very surprising. From the article it sounds like they spent a lot of money trying to 'modernize' the business, which sounds a lot like they brought in management that was more interested in 'doing management. than making money.
today at 6:27 PM
> they brought in management that was more interested in 'doing management. than making money.
Boy it'd be tragic if these guys felt like they were over their heads, decided to "hire some experts" and ended up with MBAs.
today at 5:41 PM
All these tariffs haven't saved US manufacturing? Colour me shocked ? /s
today at 3:37 PM
the current white house really fucked over all the smaller domestic manufacturers. and scientists. and um america basically
today at 3:46 PM
Everything.
If you are a builder, there is no sane way to bid on contracts with such hugely variable COGS.
And how the HELL do you even attempt to fix the US housing supply if you are tariffing Canadian lumber? You can't.
today at 9:11 PM
- US imports 20% of its lumber from Canada vs. 70% local lumber.
- Raw lumber costs are about 1% of the price of a house in California.
- Lumber prices were much much higher during the pandemic and are actually not that high right now: https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/lumber (it's at 9 months low and cheaper than in 2018).
today at 4:08 PM
Guess this is what happens when you elect a group that prioritizes enriching themselves over ensuring you don't starve in the street like a filthy animal.
today at 6:37 PM
Likewise, how do you attempt to fix US manufacturing if you are tariffing Canadian aluminum?
today at 5:28 PM
As for the housing... stop using lumber maybe? Us Europeans build houses out of bricks and mortar or outright concrete.
Lumber framing only makes sense if you want something dirt cheap (and yet, US matchsticks and cardboard houses go for millions of dollars?!) or something that needs to be earthquake resilient and affordable.
today at 9:02 PM
What is the deal with europeans who have zero knowledge of construction having a weird grudge against wood framing?
today at 5:32 PM
I have a video for this.
It's because of our earthquakes and the severity of our storms. The lumber frame and design of construction flexes and sways when stone and brick would break (tornados are different story). Likewise when they do break, and they absolutely will given some of these forces, it doesn't bankrupt people and companies when trying to recover from those events. Bigger buildings of concrete, stone and brick here are now built very different, sometimes on giant metal plates with actual springs.
Here you go:
https://youtube.com/shorts/jFph1d2WR3s
Btw:
> or something that needs to be earthquake resilient and affordable
https://earthquake.alaska.edu/earthquakes
today at 3:42 PM
Sad.
Is there a free alternative to this ideally community owned and open source?
today at 4:05 PM
I'm not sure what you are hoping from "free", "community owned", and "open source".
They make mills and lathes. They are really nice little machines, great for hobby use. We have one lathe from them in our hackspace for example, and it is a delight. Of course you have to understand the limitations of the tool, but that is true for every machine.
That being said, it is just a lathe. There is nothing particularly complicated about it. At least not at their complexity level. If you can manufacture machine tools you can make one very easily. If you don't have the manufacturing capability you won't.
The reason i'm saying this is because "free as in freedom" and "open source" are properties of plans / source code. If you happen to have a lathe factory, the lack of a lathe plan is not going to stop you. You are just going to design one for yourself. And if you don't have a factory which can make a lathe, then why do you care about plans for a lathe being open source?
I guess the factory itself could be "community owned". If you have a business plan, or a large pile of cash, now is the time to approach them that you want to buy everything from them. But I'm not sure how "community owned" would even work for this use case.
Basically what I'm saying this is hardware, not software. The terms you use don't make much sense in this case.
today at 4:02 PM
the sherline designs aren't particularly notable, and they're pretty easy to replicate if you have working machine tools that are larger. any machinist could make a sherline mill or lathe, but without that floorspace and capex and skill, one really can't.
I spent overly long trying to learn on sherline tools and once I gave up and bought a Bridgeport and an old Logan, I realized that I was just banging my head against the limitations of the tools.
the value they had was that they were cheaper than the smaller version of the standard toolroom machines, and they were a way to bootstrap yourself without having the heavy power and the floorspace. so pretty much the storefront, not the IP. I still have their 4" rotary, and its actually not bad. the mill had a huge amount of flex in the column that made it pretty unusable for me unless you took really really tiny passes.
I had an old Unimat for a couple years, and while that was even _more_ dodgy than the sherline the fact that it was all steel and a combined mill/lathe made it a lot more interesting. would rather see some community standards for tooling on a platform like that. maybe a 50% larger so setup isn't so fiddly.
today at 6:47 PM
100% They were fine for what they were, but once you use a big tool you just can’t go back.
I think there is plenty of room for innovation in hobby machines, but IME, hobbiest value work envelope maybe even more than pros.
today at 9:32 PM
Given that the Gingery books folks are shutting down as well: https://gingerybookstore.com/
one wonders what the other alternatives are.
I mentioned Taig elsethread, and the Unimat is still available at https://thecooltool.com/en/ --- for opensource there are a couple of options:
- https://www.lathes.co.uk/multimachine/
- https://www.printables.com/model/89657-3d-printed-wood-lathe...
and I've been debating on getting a small Grizzly G0745: https://www.grizzly.com/products/grizzly-4-x-6-variable-spee...
Are there other notable approaches/options?