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Babylonian Lamb Stew with Beets (1750–1730 BCE)

140 points - last Thursday at 6:40 PM

Source
  • dvh

    yesterday at 6:21 PM

    Apparently their beets looked the same as ours:

    > The kind of beets used in such an ancient recipe should not be different from the beets we use today, even in name. We read in Dictionary of Assyrian Botany (by Campbell Thompson, 1948) that in the ancient Mesopotamian region it was called ‘shumundar,’ it was as red as blood, and has a spinning-top shape (pp. 49, 51).

      • gyanchawdhary

        today at 7:16 AM

        Intresting. In Hindi/urdu it’s called “chukandar”

          • rahulmax

            today at 7:29 AM

            username checks out

        • thaumasiotes

          yesterday at 10:45 PM

          If it's any consolation, their lambs were nothing like ours.

          This period is early enough that sheep weren't yet sheared.

            • fsloth

              today at 4:55 AM

              Oh! So were sheep just for meat back then?

                • eru

                  today at 6:37 AM

                  Maybe also for leather?

                  And in nature sheep drop their coats without shearing.

                    • wolfi1

                      today at 6:47 AM

                      do they? there are reports of lost sheep which when found had a very thick fur or whatever the shepherds call it

                        • eru

                          today at 6:49 AM

                          Sorry, when I said in nature, I meant undomesticated sheep.

                          Domesticated sheep that get lost for a while don't magically learn how to shed their coat, yes.

                            • ErroneousBosh

                              today at 8:41 AM

                              Pretty much all domesticated sheep will cast their fleeces.

                              There are some breeds that don't, and obviously due to random genetics you'll get individuals that don't.

                              Sheep that don't cast their fleeces are damn near impossible to shear and are mostly kept for meat. Likewise, sheep that don't have much of a "rise" (see my other comment) and are difficult to shear quite often, uh, don't have a particularly long career, as it were.

                  • thaumasiotes

                    today at 7:33 AM

                    No, the sheep were harvested for wool, but not by shearing. When they shed, we picked the shed wool from them.

                    Modern sheep grow their wool continuously, but that took a while to breed in.

                      • ErroneousBosh

                        today at 8:39 AM

                        > Modern sheep grow their wool continuously, but that took a while to breed in.

                        No they don't.

                        In the summer their wool starts to grow out much thinner, like maybe a quarter as thick - it's really noticeable. This gives what's called a "rise", a gap between the sheep's skin and the thicker coarser wool. Once that's high enough to get shears (or these days, machine clippers which are like a big beard trimmer) into you can shear the fleece off.

                        If there's no rise you haven't a hope in hell of cutting it.

                        If there's a good rise it practically falls off.

                        If you leave them long enough or if the rise starts growing in too soon, they'll start "casting" where their wool just falls off in big chunks. This is actually quite dangerous for them because it's itchy and they roll on their backs to scratch, and get stuck upside down with their legs in the air and suffocate.

                        And you thought sheep farming was easy and fun ;-)

                          • YeGoblynQueenne

                            today at 9:10 AM

                            I thought animal farming in general is an arcane science.

                            My friends have goats but they aren't farmers and they haven't got a clue how to care for them. The females sometimes are left with milk in their breasts after their young are weaned and one of my friends will get anxious about that and ask us to help her milk them. It's impossible. You can't milk a goat that doesn't want to be milked. If you push them too hard they lie down so you can't reach their teats and that's that unless you want to have three people lifting the goat up and another one trying to milk her while she squirms and kicks. I don't trust the milk either. Once in a while they succeed in milking a goat and when I tried the milk (after boiling it) it was sort of gritty, like it was mixed with sand. It was not impurities from the environment because I filtered it through a muslin so I think the animal may have had some infection like a mastitis or something that affected the milk's texture.

                            I bet farmers know exactly what to do about all that or probably they know how to get the animals used to milking when they're still young so that the won't resist it that much. I've watched videos of goats being milked and it looks almost effortless when a pump is used. The goats just line up in their feeding trays and then someone walks up to them from behind, pumps out their tits and moves to the next one, bish bash bosh. My friends don't even have a dedicated structure to feed the goats, we just throw hay for them on the ground so they end up fighting.

                            My friends really have no idea how to care for the goats, it's rather sad. The owner of the farm has even said he wants to get "wild" goats that don't need to be cared for. By that he means a herd of goats that have gone feral and roam the hills in a village nearby. He thinks because nobody actively cares for them and the herd persists that must mean the goats are somehow self-sufficient. I think that's a big misunderstanding. Domesticated animals need a lot of care one way or another.

                            I think I'd prefer to have sheep though, if I had animals. Sheep look much nicer than goats.

            • alephnerd

              yesterday at 6:24 PM

              The recipe is also similar to Hamedh [0], a delicacy in Iraqi and Baghdadi Jewish households. The only major difference is the addition of tomatoes thanks to the Columbian Exchange, and rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet.

              On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared (tumatar/tamatimu) with the English word "tomato".

              But anyhow, a lot of home cooking and traditional meals actually have a pretty long history.

              [0] - https://www.splendidtable.org/story/2000/12/12/hamad-iraqi-b...

                • culi

                  today at 6:03 AM

                  > rice - which would have not been cultivated or traded in West Asia yet

                  Surprisingly it was still imported in surprising quantities nearly 1000 years before it started to be cultivated. Not significant enough quantities for it to be a common staple, but still an interesting tidbit

                    • ErroneousBosh

                      today at 8:44 AM

                      One day, someone - someone like you, maybe, someone with the Hacker Nature - was looking at the rice they'd bought and thought "You know what, it just *cannot* be all that difficult to just grow this stuff here, it costs a fortune to import. How hard can it possibly be?"

                      So they set to digging irrigation trenches, and had a go at it, and maybe a couple of shitty harvests later they'd got the trick nailed.

                      And here we are.

                  • amir_karbasi

                    yesterday at 10:03 PM

                    Actually, in Persian, tomato is literally translated as “western plum”. This is common in our language as we usually say “western” or “foreign” as a prefix to many things that were introduced to Iran (strawberries, sit-style toilets, etc)

                      • xattt

                        today at 12:43 AM

                        As an aside, tomatoes are golden apples (pomodoro), and oranges are Chinese apples (Apfelsin) in some languages.

                        A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples or, in GP’s context, stone fruit as “reference” points.

                          • mlni

                            today at 8:12 AM

                            Potatoes are called "earth apples" in french (pomme de terre) and a bunch of other european languages

                            • vladgur

                              today at 6:21 AM

                              Wow, апельсин - apelsin(Russian) makes total sense now

                              • snthpy

                                today at 5:44 AM

                                Thank you for this. Knowing both those words, i could never work out the original/history of the terms.

                                • fsckboy

                                  today at 5:44 AM

                                  >A lot of cultures appear to name botanicals using apples

                                  don't know if it makes the point or upends it, but the fruit in the Garden of Eden wasn't specifically an apple.

                              • thrdbndndn

                                today at 1:07 AM

                                Chinese does the same thing, using prefixes like 西 (western), 番 (foreign), and 洋 (foreign) for introduced items.

                                For tomatoes, interestingly, it has two common names that follow this pattern: 西紅柿, literally translated as "Western Red Persimmon", and 番茄, literally translated as "Foreign Eggplant".

                                Other produce examples include 番薯 (Foreign Yam) for sweet potato, 西瓜 (Western Melon) for watermelon, 洋蔥 (Foreign Onion) for bulb onion etc.

                                  • dotancohen

                                    today at 1:42 AM

                                    The recorded English-language etymology for "ketchup" suggests that the word comes from one of the Chinese dialect's word for tomato. Do you have any idea which Chinese word sounds like ketchup?

                                      • bwv848

                                        today at 8:59 AM

                                        茄ke2 汁zap1, but if I remember it correctly, Dan Jurafsky believes it is from 喼git1 汁zap1, worcestershire sauce

                                        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9iYwUh1Hdho

                                        • thelibrarian

                                          today at 6:22 AM

                                          My personal theory based on nothing more than the vibe of the thing is that it comes from the Malay/Indonesian word ‘kecap’ (which is pronounced almost identically to “ketchup”), the word for sweet soy sauce. This is soy sauce that is thickened and sweetened with palm sugar, and I could see European cooks attempting to replicate it based on the vague descriptions given by sailors, and ending up with ketchup.

                                            • dotancohen

                                              today at 8:13 AM

                                              Interesting, thank you.

                                              • suddenlybananas

                                                today at 7:18 AM

                                                It came from the Malay word, but the Malay word comes from Hokkien.

                                            • taneliv

                                              today at 5:26 AM

                                              Not exactly a Chinese dialect, but Vietnamese calls tomatoes "cà chua": https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/c%C3%A0_chua .

                                                • dotancohen

                                                  today at 8:14 AM

                                                  Are the Vietnamese and Chinese languages related? Or perhaps one of the two cultures was introduced to that fruit by the other, and thus preserved the name?

                                                    • avadodin

                                                      today at 9:01 AM

                                                      Not related at all in recent history and I have no insight on the etymology links but Vietnamese used to be written in a mix of original Vietnamese Chinese-style characters before they changed to a Latin alphabet with Colonialism and Communism so there was definitely contact.

                                              • fsckboy

                                                today at 5:49 AM

                                                possibly Hokkien 膎汁 (kê-chiap, “fish sauce”) via Malay kecap ~ kicap “any dark clear sauce from soy, fish etc”

                                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ketchup#Etymology

                                        • riffraff

                                          yesterday at 10:30 PM

                                          Interesting, in various European languages those tend to be "Turkish": turkey hens (the bird called turkey now), Turkish corn (maize), Turkish beans (long beans).

                                          Again, trade routes.

                                            • selcuka

                                              today at 4:16 AM

                                              > Turkish corn (maize)

                                              And in Turkish maize is called "Mısır", which comes from the country name Egypt (which is also Mısır in Turkish).

                                              When Arabs conquered Egypt, they called it "Mishr" (مصر) which literally translates to "country" or "borderland". Maize was originally imported from the Americas, but because the trade route was through Egypt, Turkish people initially called it Egypt Wheat or Egypt Millet. In time, it is started to be called only Mısır/Egypt.

                                                • sehansen

                                                  today at 8:07 AM

                                                  I wonder what they call maize in Egypt then?

                                                  According to Kagi Translate, a term for maize that's specific to Egypt is "الذرة الشامية" (al-dhura ash-shāmiyyah) which could be directly translated to "Levantine sorghum". Can anyone with actual knowledge of Egytian Arabic confirm?

                                                  Also I had the idea that "Maize" might have come from "Mısır", but etymonline claims it comes from the native (Arawakan) name for the plant: mahiz.

                                              • idontwantthis

                                                yesterday at 11:24 PM

                                                In Panama they say Chino for foreign versions and in Cambodia they say barang which literally means Frankish (via farang from Thailand).

                                                • oldandboring

                                                  yesterday at 11:10 PM

                                                  > maize

                                                  Which, in turn, originated in Mexico and didn't make its way to Europe until the 1500s.

                                              • eru

                                                today at 6:38 AM

                                                Austrians call tomatoes Paradeiser, from an older word for Paradise.

                                                • bitwize

                                                  today at 7:33 AM

                                                  There is a bird native to the Americas which in English is called the turkey, from its original name "Turkey fowl", because it was thought to come from "the east" of which Türkiye is the country with which most Europeans were familiar (due to being the closest). In Turkish, the bird's name references India ("hindi"); the same is true of other languages such as French ("dinde", from "poule d'inde", chicken of India).

                                                  • alephnerd

                                                    yesterday at 10:23 PM

                                                    Appreciate the clarification!

                                                      • amir_karbasi

                                                        yesterday at 10:53 PM

                                                        My pleasure! I also find languages very interesting and have had the opportunity to grow up in a bilingual home and learn French and German.

                                                        One more fun fact is that potato is a direct translation of the French “Pomme de terre” (“sib zamani” or “ground apple”).

                                                        Back to the actual topic, this is a recipe that’s definitely worth trying. Persian shallots are actually more garlicky than oniony. A great addition to lamb dishes and yogurt.

                                                          • dotancohen

                                                            today at 1:44 AM

                                                            Thank you! In Hebrew we literally call the potato תפוח אדמה which is "ground apple". Now I know where the idea comes from.

                                                        • abtinf

                                                          today at 4:10 AM

                                                          It is not a “clarification”. You are wrong and are spreading misinformation. In Farsi, the word for tomato is gojeh farangi.

                                                  • dotancohen

                                                    today at 1:39 AM

                                                      > On that note, in Arabic, Farsi, and Hindustani the word for Tomato is essentially shared (tumatar/tamatimu) with the English word "tomato".
                                                    
                                                    In the Levant we use the word بندورا "bindora" in Arabic for tomato.

                                                      • alephnerd

                                                        today at 1:54 AM

                                                        Huh. Like Pomodoro. That makes sense.

                                                          • dotancohen

                                                            today at 8:18 AM

                                                            Very likely from Pomodoro. In Arabic P is pronounced B or F.

                                                            • IgorPartola

                                                              today at 3:18 AM

                                                              In Russian we use tomat and pomidor interchangeably.

                                            • eikenberry

                                              yesterday at 7:38 PM

                                              Close to a recipe on Tasting History... https://www.tastinghistory.com/recipes/babylonianlambstew Our current favorite dinner watching along with Alton Brown.

                                                • Rendello

                                                  yesterday at 8:12 PM

                                                  I've made this Roman recipe probably a dozen times and everyone who's tried it really likes it [1].

                                                  The strange ingredients are garum [2] and asafoetida [3]. The former is just a fish sauce, so that's not hard to substitute, but you have to find asafoetida on the Internet or at an Indian food store.

                                                  1. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LynenQ5h2Y

                                                  2. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Garum

                                                  3. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asafoetida

                                                    • jamal-kumar

                                                      today at 4:26 AM

                                                      I can usually find hing (asafoetida) in grocery stores in certain more populous parts of Canada in the spice section, it's quite a good garlic substitute for those who can't do garlic

                                                  • 3RTB297

                                                    today at 7:11 AM

                                                    Came here to mention Max Miller as well. Amazing work putting together historical context and recipes. Always fun, fascinating, and the recipes are generally very approachable.

                                                    I've also made the Babylonian stew from this recipe, and it's rich and hearty. It's easy to see how this would knock the...sandals off of ancient people.

                                                    Other ancient recipes...let's just say that humans have very much not held the same tastes over the eons. Some recipes were incongruent or sweet and savory in a strange way, or simply a flex about how many spices you had access to and cold throw in a dish, not about what it really tasted like. YMMV.

                                                    • maxglute

                                                      today at 1:34 AM

                                                      https://blog.crystalking.com/ancient-roman-food-parthian-chi...

                                                      the parthian chicken was stupid easy and tasty

                                                      • ilc_genesis_01

                                                        today at 12:01 AM

                                                        Yep, this is a great shoutout and I'm also a big TH fan. If you haven't yet, check it out!

                                                        • greatquux

                                                          yesterday at 11:16 PM

                                                          Yes! Came here to recommend Max. His cookbook is also educational and interesting and some of the recipes are even good! :-)

                                                      • harel

                                                        today at 12:17 AM

                                                        Coincidentally this book which has been a labour of love of his creator is going into print this week: https://www.tableofgods.com

                                                        It's quite expensive though, but it does look amazing.

                                                          • ragazzina

                                                            today at 8:41 AM

                                                            The fact that they promote the preorder of a 200$ book without showing even a single page is crazy.

                                                        • johnohara

                                                          today at 6:51 AM

                                                          The Babylonian Collection was left to Yale by J.P. Morgan in 1913. His estate at the time was estimated to be worth about $68.3M ($1.59B in 2024 dollars).

                                                          When I read that on his wikipedia page I thought "is that all?" I know I'm probably missing a bunch of other considerations, but geez, the 500th spot on the 2024 Forbes World's Billionaires list was shared by multiple individuals worth approximately $5.8B.

                                                          • comrade1234

                                                            yesterday at 7:17 PM

                                                            How's the presentation? Just imagining it, it would seem that the meet would have a weird color.

                                                              • debo_

                                                                yesterday at 7:51 PM

                                                                It looks great. When I first saw it, I thought "this color can't be beet"

                                                                  • LastTrain

                                                                    today at 3:02 AM

                                                                    OMG perfect :-)

                                                                    • _continuation

                                                                      today at 1:42 AM

                                                                      good one

                                                              • cantalopes

                                                                yesterday at 11:49 PM

                                                                Gonna be quite challenging to get "1/2 cup of rendered sheep fat"

                                                                  • strken

                                                                    today at 12:14 AM

                                                                    In Australia where lamb is more common than in the US, it'd be pretty easy to keep the fat after roasting a lamb shoulder, or to freeze the fatty offcuts from forequarter chops and render them after I had enough.

                                                                    • jp0d

                                                                      today at 12:09 AM

                                                                      Lamb is quite popular down here in Australia. I usually keep some rendered fat from my roasts etc. Sometimes I cook other meats with it and it adds heaps of flavour. I do that with pork fat as well.

                                                                      • mermadicsolutio

                                                                        today at 12:39 AM

                                                                        I was able to get some tail fat from a halal butcher. But never seen lamb fat anywhere else

                                                                        • s0rce

                                                                          today at 12:13 AM

                                                                          if you have a good butcher they might be able to get you some that you can render, but its a hassle. I've done this for beef fat to make some british pie things.

                                                                          • ardit33

                                                                            today at 5:26 AM

                                                                            Easy... Just go to a Trader's Joe, and get a lamb leg and roast it....

                                                                            • dyauspitr

                                                                              today at 1:28 AM

                                                                              Lamb is usually the red meat of choice, other than pork, almost everywhere besides the US.

                                                                                • hulitu

                                                                                  today at 4:48 AM

                                                                                  You should visit Europe.

                                                                                    • pjmlp

                                                                                      today at 7:42 AM

                                                                                      We do eat a lot of lamb in Southern Europe.

                                                                                      • badc0ffee

                                                                                        today at 6:19 AM

                                                                                        Or Japan, or Canada, or Argentina, or Brazil, or Chile, or...

                                                                                          • dyauspitr

                                                                                            today at 7:56 AM

                                                                                            Yeah seems like a north and South America thing for the most part.

                                                                                        • dyauspitr

                                                                                          today at 7:41 AM

                                                                                          I was there for two months a month ago. Is it a lot of beef? I couldn’t really tell I remember a lot of pork and fish and chicken.

                                                                                            • rsynnott

                                                                                              today at 9:01 AM

                                                                                              I’m not sure that it’s dominant anywhere other than Greece and the Balkans, but lamb would be quite popular in a lot of European countries. Pretty much anywhere on the Mediterranean, plus Ireland and Britain, at least.

                                                                                              I’m not sure there’s anywhere in Europe where it would be as unusual as it is in the US (where it definitely does seem to be seen as kinda vaguely exotic.)

                                                                                  • protocolture

                                                                                    today at 3:50 AM

                                                                                    I cant see why.

                                                                                • bornfreddy

                                                                                  yesterday at 8:18 PM

                                                                                  I think the taste of their beer would have been much different from what we drink today?

                                                                                • peri-cl

                                                                                  today at 1:17 AM

                                                                                  The source texts are available here, if anyone wants to read the literal translations:

                                                                                  https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/ancient-mesopota...

                                                                                  • yubblegum

                                                                                    yesterday at 9:01 PM

                                                                                    I'm reading Lloyd Llewellyn-Jones' Babylon - The Biography of a Metropolis which just recently came out, and that's how I ended up hearing about Yale's culinary adventures.

                                                                                    The book, btw, is kind of breezy in style and 'he of many LLs in his name' (Lālu-mullālu in Akkadian as suggested by my friendly AI) uses a lot of contemporary pop (nerdy) references to carry the narrative, yet very engaging and am learning a lot about this fabled city (and civilization).

                                                                                    It sets certain records straight ...

                                                                                    • PeterHolzwarth

                                                                                      today at 12:13 AM

                                                                                      What's enlightening is how astonishingly little salt is used, by our standards.

                                                                                        • peri-cl

                                                                                          today at 1:08 AM

                                                                                          The ingredient ratios are the Yale researchers' interpretation—they're not from the source text,

                                                                                          https://www.laphamsquarterly.org/roundtable/ancient-mesopota...

                                                                                          > "Like most premodern cooking manuals, the Babylonian recipes rarely list the quantities of each ingredient, and so basic experimentation is needed to determine viable proportions for the assembly of a dough or the salting of a stew. The “experimental” approach likewise offers answers to questions that can only be addressed through trial and error. For example, many of the identifications of herbs proposed by modern scholars are based mainly on medical compendia, and some of the plants thus identified can produce an extremely bitter or perhaps pungent taste when used in food."

                                                                                          Here's the recipes as literally translated (I used tesseract to OCR):

                                                                                          > "Unwinding. Meat is not used. You prepare water. You add fat. (You add) kurrat, cilantro, salt as desired, leek, garlic. You pound up dried sourdough, you sift (it) and you scatter (it) over the pot before removing it."

                                                                                          > "Stew of lamb. Meat is used. You prepare water. You add fat. You add fine-grained salt, dried barley cakes, onion, Persian shallot, and milk. [You crush] (and add) leek and garlic."

                                                                                          > "Elamite broth. Meat is not used. You prepare water. You add fat. Dill, kurrat, cilantro, leek, and garlic bound with blood, a corresponding amount of sour milk, and (more) garlic. The (original) name (of this dish) is Zukanda."

                                                                                          > "Tuh’u. Leg meat is used. You prepare water. You add fat. You sear. You fold in salt, beer, onion, arugula, cilantro, Persian shallot, cumin, and red’ beet, and [you crush] leek and garlic. You sprinkle coriander on top. [You add] kurrat and fresh cilantro."

                                                                                      • lorenzohess

                                                                                        today at 5:21 AM

                                                                                        Bears,Beets

                                                                                          • culi

                                                                                            today at 6:07 AM

                                                                                            Babylon Galactica

                                                                                        • lettergram

                                                                                          today at 1:12 AM

                                                                                          If you like this, you may like the "Tasting History" YouTube channel - https://www.youtube.com/@TastingHistory

                                                                                          He basically covers a different historic dish every week ranging from the oldest recorded dishes to cafeteria food from 1990; or what they served on the Titanic, etc.

                                                                                          It's a great channel, and covers history well.

                                                                                          • mermadicsolutio

                                                                                            today at 12:37 AM

                                                                                            Honestly the recipe sounds like adding beets to a regular lamb stew recipe. If I havent watch this video and saw the dish, I would think some fancy restaurant is trying to be "innovative"

                                                                                            • analog8374

                                                                                              yesterday at 7:39 PM

                                                                                              I dislike lamb but the rest sounds great. Maybe I could sub beef.

                                                                                              • dyauspitr

                                                                                                today at 1:30 AM

                                                                                                I mean, this had to be a dish for royalty or something right? How on earth that they have all of those fresh and dried ingredients on hand 4000 years ago.

                                                                                                  • today at 8:24 AM

                                                                                                    • tensor

                                                                                                      today at 3:26 AM

                                                                                                      No, it's common. People today have no idea how truly poor they eat. Modern fast food is essentially fake food paste.

                                                                                                        • globular-toast

                                                                                                          today at 7:41 AM

                                                                                                          Which is a shame because you can eat so well today you can easily skip the dead animal carcass. They couldn't really do that back then in many places with short growing seasons.

                                                                                                            • dyauspitr

                                                                                                              today at 8:02 AM

                                                                                                              Why would you skip the dead animal? That is by far the best part of every meal.

                                                                                                              PS don’t jump into the whole animal cruelty spiel. I’m aware and I agree, it’s just that I don’t care. Vegetarian food, aside from maybe the narrow slice with how the Indians prepare it, is completely unsatisfying and I’m OK with animals suffering as long as I can continue to have meat because it’s just so delicious. That being said, I would eagerly switch to lab grown meat if they can do it correctly.

                                                                                                              Vegan food on the other hand is brain dead food. I mean that literally and metaphorically. Anecdotally every vegan I’ve met seems nutritionally deficient and slow. They also go out of their way to eat food aping meat and that stuff turns out to be the most chemically processed and unhealthy stuff you could possibly imagine.

                                                                                                              • stackghost

                                                                                                                today at 8:13 AM

                                                                                                                Oh good, the vegans are here to leave smug comments

                                                                                                        • ardit33

                                                                                                          today at 5:30 AM

                                                                                                          2/3rds of those herbs grow in the garden of my home as just weed (this in Albania), including mint, cilantro, origano and more.

                                                                                                          While some have to be cultivated, a lot these herbs just grow as weeds in the Mediterranean area.

                                                                                                          • sophacles

                                                                                                            today at 2:54 AM

                                                                                                            Most of them seem like a pretty common kitchen garden to me.

                                                                                                            And all of the plants are native to that area, or close enough that people who had been farming for a few thousand years at that point would have brought them from neighboring lands to use.

                                                                                                        • thataccount

                                                                                                          last Thursday at 6:50 PM

                                                                                                          [flagged]

                                                                                                            • tom_

                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:26 PM

                                                                                                              Curious indeed that the Yale Babylonian Collection should, out of all the possible options, choose the cooking of Ancient Babylon. I wonder what we should read into this. I have some theories, but it might be dangerous for me even to mention that I have them.

                                                                                                              • yubblegum

                                                                                                                last Thursday at 7:09 PM

                                                                                                                Cradle of civilization is not an odd culture. Babylon, meaning Gate of God, is one of the more profoundly influential urban civilizational clusters in human history.

                                                                                                                  • thataccount

                                                                                                                    last Thursday at 7:13 PM

                                                                                                                    [flagged]

                                                                                                                      • ahazred8ta

                                                                                                                        last Thursday at 11:56 PM

                                                                                                                        To an archeologist, 'civilization' refers to builders of walled cities inhabited by non-farmers with complex social sructure, division of labor, and usually some form of taxation. Highly moral hunter gatherers living in mud huts are not a 'civilization' in this context. Now you know.

                                                                                                                          • thataccount

                                                                                                                            last Friday at 12:29 AM

                                                                                                                            [flagged]

                                                                                                                              • krapp

                                                                                                                                last Friday at 12:44 AM

                                                                                                                                The vast majority of Africans aren't hunter-gatherers living in mud huts. They have actual cities with highways and skyscrapers and everything.

                                                                                                                                  • thataccount

                                                                                                                                    last Friday at 12:58 AM

                                                                                                                                    I'm not arguing for what is a majority. I'm talking about the large portions of Africa that still live in a hunter-gatherer situations in mud huts.

                                                                                                                                      • ahazred8ta

                                                                                                                                        last Friday at 4:00 AM

                                                                                                                                        Villages in New Guinea, the Amazon, etc, the word you're looking for is 'cultures'.

                                                                                                                                        Cultures: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linear_Pottery_culture & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamnaya_culture & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corded_Ware_culture & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romani_people

                                                                                                                                        Civilizations: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Great_Zimbabwe & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mali_Empire & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indus_Valley_Civilisation & https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aztecs

                                                                                                                                        The reason we're talking about the recipe is because it's one of the oldest recorded recipes, which is because they had writing.

                                                                                                                                          • thataccount

                                                                                                                                            last Friday at 12:30 PM

                                                                                                                                            >'cultures'.

                                                                                                                                            That's interesting, because I don't really think of a "culture" as smaller than a "civilization". I think of a culture being a necessary thread that runs through a civilization and without which there are no civilizations.

                                                                                                                                        • TFNA

                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 9:24 PM

                                                                                                                                          Traveling overland across Africa will swiftly disabuse you of the notion that hunter/gatherer lifestyles make up any "large portion" of the continent's population. It would hardly even be feasible in the face of massive deforestation and population boom.

                                                                                                                                          • krapp

                                                                                                                                            last Friday at 1:58 AM

                                                                                                                                            Africa comprises an entire continent. There are not large portions of it (or "large swaths") where people still live as hunter-gatherers living in mud huts, for any reasonable definition of "large portion."

                                                                                                                                              • jfjdkdkdkd

                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                its sad that your ideology allows you to tell lies without an oz of shame.

                                                                                                                                                • thataccount

                                                                                                                                                  last Friday at 12:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                  > for any reasonable definition of "large portion."

                                                                                                                                                  I'm sure those relatively voiceless cultures will appreciate your minimization of their contribution to the peoples of Africa.

                                                                                                                                                    • krapp

                                                                                                                                                      last Friday at 1:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                      You're the one who was claiming most Africans were hut-dwelling hunter-gatherers earlier. I'm not the one minimizing anything or anyone, just stop it.

                                                                                                                                                        • thataccount

                                                                                                                                                          last Friday at 1:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                          Uh, what? I'm not sure where you are pulling that accusation from. I said very succinctly that I was not talking about what was the majority in Africa. I think you are confused.

                                                                                                                              • BugsJustFindMe

                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:30 PM

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