From the depths of hell in silence

Cast their spells, explosive violence

Russian night time flight perfected

Flawless vision, undetected

(Sabaton)

• alecsm

  today at 4:15 PM

  That's the first thing that came to my mind after reading the title.

  It may seem a joke but you actually can learn history with Sabaton.

In the US and the UK, members of the WAAC (Women’s Army Auxiliary Corps) and the WAAF (Women’s Auxiliary Air Force) numbered in the tens of thousands, where they served as switchboard operators, air traffic controllers, and deployed barrage balloons. They occasionally got close to combat, the UK’s Flying Nightingales who served as air-ambulance nurses, first flew into Normandy just a week after D-Day to evacuate servicemembers injured during the initial assault. Both countries also employed many female aviators as training and cargo pilots, but they were almost all civilian employees of the armed forces unlike members of the WAAC and WAAF.

Meanwhile, the B-29 was under development in the US. Built almost entirely by women, men refused to fly it citing safety concerns.

So Paul Tibbets, (who went on to drop Little Boy on Hiroshima) taught a crew of women to fly the aircraft.

The logic being; if women can fly it safely, then surely men can too.

• WalterBright

  today at 5:40 PM

  Interestingly, "Flight of the Enola Gay" by Paul Tibbets does not mention this, though other narratives did.

  The B-29 did have a major problem with engine fires, due to poor cooling of the engines and magnesium parts. An early test flight of it had such a fire, killing the 11 man crew. This problem was never fully resolved, and the B-29s were pushed into combat with this problem. Having an engine fire somewhere over the Pacific must have been utterly terrifying.

  The B-29 also did not have hydraulic boost. It's a much bigger and heavier airplane than the B-17, which also did not have boost. The B-17, under emergency conditions, required a great deal of strength on the part of the pilots. My dad flew B-17s. He said that if 3 engines were out and only one outboard engine was running, it took all of a man's strength stepping on the rudder to keep the airplane straight. Even so, he could only keep it up for 10 minutes at a time, switching between pilot and copilot.

  WW2 airplanes were designed with a man's strength in mind. The P-51, for example, required a great deal of strength to control it at high speeds and in emergency conditions.

  Women pilots were used to ferry P-51s. Many were lost in crashes. My dad, who also flew P-51s, suspected that they ran into conditions where they weren't strong enough to control it.

  The Night Witches flew fighter planes that were half the weight of the P-51, making them well suited for female pilots.

  The advent of hydraulically boosted flight controls resolved this. Boeing lightened the "feel" forces on jet airliner controls to accommodate women pilots.

• pjmlp

  today at 4:51 PM

  I think the logic was more like a ego thing, like it cannot be that they can do it and we not, as seen in many man first cultures.

There is also a (very niche) TTRPG about the Night Witches by Jason Morningstar.

• mbrd

  today at 2:35 PM

  And also a board game that I'm looking forward to coming in Fall 2026 by Liz Davidson and David Thompson (art by Ian O'Toole): https://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/388558/night-witches

• jpmoral

  today at 1:51 PM

  Love the premise but couldn't get the night phase to work when I ran a one-shot. It quickly became repetitive thought that may have been just my lack of experience with the game.

• citizenkeen

  today at 3:05 PM

  Beaten to the punch. It’s quite good.

  https://bullypulpitgames.com/products/night-witches

A beautiful animated short about the Night Witches (artistic, not educational): https://vimeo.com/224657277

In the Apple TV series "Star City" the head of the KGB surveillance department is referred to as the "Night Witch"

• gcanyon

  today at 4:32 PM

  Shout out for Star City (and For All Mankind of course). The first ten minutes of FAM hit me unexpectedly hard, and the overall science fiction of both series is awesome.

There's a pretty good depiction of them in David L. Robbins' Last Citadel.

“An attack technique of the night bombers involved idling the engine near the target and gliding to the bomb-release point with only wind noise left to reveal their presence. Allegedly, German soldiers likened the sound to broomsticks and hence named the pilots "Night Witches".”

That’s an interesting story behind the name.

Sabaton, a swedish historical power metal band, also wrote a song about these women if you're into that kind of thing.

https://www.sabaton.net/discography/heroes/night-witches/

• oliculipolicula

  today at 2:35 PM

  https://youtu.be/0VGqHPeMoEA

  And if you are into all kinds of things

In one of the IL-2 Sturmovik games you could fly the Polikarpov Po-2. It's pretty fun because it can maneuver effectively at a speed below the stall speed of most German fighters, so it's pretty much impossible for them to "saddle up" on you for a tracking shot.

As a result unless the AA batteries get you, or Fritz gets lucky lobbing a Mk 108 shell at you from long range, it's actually pretty safe and effective.

• Onavo

  today at 4:39 PM

  Interesting, seems like the Soviets love low stall speed planes. The AN-2 was also famous for having a vertical descent speed slower than parachutes at full back elevator deflection.

[flagged]

• zulban

  today at 2:07 PM

  No need to put down men to talk about how awesome this women's pilot team sounds.

• delichon

  today at 2:12 PM

  From a military perspective, fertile women are also useful for producing more soldiers, logistics workers, and taxpayers, making males preferrable draftees where their warfighting qualities are similar.

  Russia has suffered ~1.4M casualties in Ukraine. If around half of those were fertile women it would increase the rate of their current demographic collapse by several percentage points.

  • derektank

    today at 2:36 PM

    Also, men are just physically stronger, which makes them more effective as infantry forces. The advent of mechanical warfare and the creation of roles like pilot or sensor technician or satellite operator which don’t require physical strength have provided a lot more opportunities for women to serve effectively in conflict.

  • bebe9494i4

    today at 2:51 PM

    Quite opposite, if Russia drafted women, there would be a baby boom in Russia.

    Based on data from US military (professionals, not draftees), female service members are very likely to get pregnant, just before combat deployment.

    So drafting women is a double win, it increases number of soldiers and increases fertility.

    • delichon

      today at 3:50 PM

      So when they get pregnant at the last moment their training is wasted and a soldier is lost. And if they don't get pregnant with the right timing, they get fed into a meat grinder at the front? It seems suboptimal.

      And if the survival of your culture depends on forcing women to breed on fear of death, better if it doesn't.

      • bebe9494i4

        today at 5:23 PM

        > fertile women are also useful for producing more soldiers

        It is you, who treats women as some sort of fertile prduction factories! "Military perspective" is irrelevant, it takes 18 years to raise kid.

        My point is they do their duty as citizens, nobody is forcing anyone to get pregnant! I just disproved your myth that combat service somehow lowers fertility.

        > they get fed into a meat grinder at the front

        Ukraine is great at killing russian soldiers. If they have more soldiers (women), they would do even better job! That is what war does, it is not gender specific!