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Tell HN: Announcing tomhow as a public moderator

1756 points - yesterday at 4:49 PM


Hi all,

Tom Howard is going public as HN moderator today. He has been doing HN moderation work for years already and knows the site and its practices inside-out, so the only new thing you'll see is mod comments from Tom showing up in the threads the way mine do. I'm not going anywhere, so you'll have two of us to put up with going forward :)

I've known Tom since he was sctb's and my batchmate back in YC W09. Many of you know him as the kind and thoughtful community member tomhoward (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=tomhoward). He's still kind and thoughtful, but he's going to post as tomhow from now on (https://news.ycombinator.com/user?id=tomhow), the same way I switched to dang when I went through this rite of passage years ago.

Below is a bit from Tom about himself. Please join me in welcoming him to this new status which he was crazy enough to say yes to!

---

YC and HN have been a huge part of my life for nearly two decades. I read pg's essay How to Start a Startup in 2005 after my friend (and later, co-founder) Fenn found it on Slashdot, and it opened our eyes as to how to go about building products and companies. I first signed up in late 2007, and since then HN has been the place I come to find interesting news and discussions.

Hacker News gave me a window into the big wide world of technology and startups, that had previously seemed so remote and opaque from where I lived (and still live) in Australia. We were lucky enough to be accepted into the W09 batch of YC, and since then HN has been a place where we could share announcements about the startup, but also where I could share the challenges and struggles I experienced in the startup journey and other aspects of life, particularly to do with health and wellbeing.

From the discussions that have happened about these topics I've ended up making enduring friendships with people all over the world, and have been able to learn many things that have improved my life in profound ways. I love HN's ethos - of being a place people come to engage their curiosity. That's what it's always been for me and what I hope I can help it to be for everyone!

--Tom

  • tomhow

    yesterday at 7:21 PM

    Many thanks for the warm welcome, everyone.

    Itā€™s been a privilege to help support this community and to work alongside dang, who has been a great friend and mentor for many years. Itā€™s a great responsibility, to keep HN a healthy and thriving community, and Iā€™m continually amazed to see all the ways dang puts thought and energy into it.

    One final note is that it was never part of the negotiations that I was expected to know or learn Arc, yet somehow in the onboarding process the HN Arc repo has found its way onto my machine, so it feels like the bait and switch is onā€¦

      • zormino

        yesterday at 9:30 PM

        Thank you for doing what you do! I'm sure it isn't easy keeping this place healthy and thriving, but me and so many others really appreciate the blood, sweat and probably a few literal tears it takes :)

          • jdthedisciple

            today at 6:38 AM

            Not to forget ā€” of course ā€” the cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) that must've went into cushioning the brain from the occasional nervekiller comment, as well as the endo-/perilymph for the overall "mental balance".

        • wholinator2

          today at 12:51 PM

          Hi, I'm just some young guy but i wanted to thank you for contributing to what makes this site great. It feels to me like this is one of the last bastions of the true news aggregator/comment media of old and i really appreciate everyone who dedicates time to maintaining it. Thanks <3

            • tomhow

              today at 9:05 PM

              Thanks to you! We hope to keep the site great for people of all ages, but keeping it relevant for younger readers is something we particularly think about. You're most welcome to email us and tell us if you ever think of ways we can do better at this.

          • frainfreeze

            yesterday at 8:13 PM

            One more welcome from another Tom o/

            Nice to hear someone else is looking at Arc now as well! Any chance we might see some issues on anarki resolved now? Perhaps https://github.com/arclanguage/anarki/issues/89 would be a good starting point :grin:

            Jokes aside, its good to see YC cares about community, and looking forward to seeing your nick in the comments. Good luck

              • tombert

                today at 12:35 AM

                Indeed, from yet another Tom, glad you're doing what you're doing. HN is the best forum on the internet in no small part due to very active moderation efforts.

            • simonebrunozzi

              yesterday at 9:21 PM

              Welcome, Tom!

              Thanks for your moderation work so far, and welcome as an official moderator. Glad you'll be helping Dang keeping this an awesome community.

              • Rodeoclash

                yesterday at 10:20 PM

                Tom, what a small world. Seems just like yesterday we were at Inspire 9 together!

                  • tomhow

                    today at 6:47 AM

                    Hey Sam, we first met well before that :)

                • dmit

                  yesterday at 9:30 PM

                  Welcome! And also I am so sorry

                  • kragen

                    today at 12:16 AM

                    Best wishes! Please let me know if there's anything I can do to help.

                    • babuloseo

                      yesterday at 9:24 PM

                      Welcome tom, as a fellow moderator its not easy haha, I am sure its easier than Reddit.

                      • QuantumGood

                        yesterday at 9:01 PM

                        Thanks in advance, Tom. Never a better time for more smart work in this area.

                        • skissane

                          today at 11:00 AM

                          > One final note is that it was never part of the negotiations that I was expected to know or learn Arc, yet somehow in the onboarding process the HN Arc repo has found its way onto my machine, so it feels like the bait and switch is onā€¦

                          I would love it if you could get the current HN code base into a state that it could be open sourced

                          I understand the desire to keep certain aspects ā€œsecret sauceā€ to prevent abuse, but surely that could be addressed with some kind of plugin mechanism and then just donā€™t open source those plugins

                          • OzzyB

                            yesterday at 9:54 PM

                            Thank you for taking up the mantle!

                            • oseph

                              today at 5:11 AM

                              Congrats Tom!

                              • cantrecallmypwd

                                today at 9:12 AM

                                All hail our new, most favourite overlord from the British Commonwealth on days ending in "y"!

                                  • baobabKoodaa

                                    today at 10:10 AM

                                    I, for one, welcome our new overlord Tom.

                                • insin

                                  yesterday at 10:47 PM

                                  Welcome, Tomho W

                                  • adamdennis

                                    yesterday at 10:38 PM

                                    Welcome Tom!

                                    • BUFU

                                      today at 12:23 AM

                                      Welcome!

                                      • gadders

                                        today at 10:55 AM

                                        Please rewrite HN as an SPA using the most bleeding edge alpha JavaScript frameworks you can find.

                                          • tomhow

                                            today at 9:01 PM

                                            10MB page-weight SPA with the front page a 3 x 10 grid of image tile links coming soon. After all my background is in consumer travel and "desktop-like" business admin apps. I'm a natural for this.

                                            • robertlagrant

                                              today at 12:16 PM

                                              The one thing that could improve HN is rendering fonts clientside on to a full screen Canvas element. Then all we need is a client-side framework for interpreting the element's pixels into HTML for screen reader support.

                                              • diggan

                                                today at 11:31 AM

                                                I dunno if you got the memo, but we're in 3rd of April now, no more jokes allowed, especially not traumatic ones like those.

                                                  • gadders

                                                    today at 1:13 PM

                                                    Reminder for April Fools Day next Year: Get Dang to do a post saying HN is moving to a discord server.

                                                      • residentraspber

                                                        today at 6:14 PM

                                                        That's not a prank, it's just evil!

                                            • facile3232

                                              yesterday at 11:53 PM

                                              Welcome! Good luck for a hard job.

                                              • MrMcCall

                                                yesterday at 10:10 PM

                                                [flagged]

                                                  • MrMcCall

                                                    yesterday at 10:37 PM

                                                    [flagged]

                                                • lofaszvanitt

                                                  today at 1:34 AM

                                                  [flagged]

                                              • rurp

                                                yesterday at 6:09 PM

                                                Welcome Tom! I want to add to the chorus saying how excellent HN has been for so many years, in large part thanks to the excellent moderation. I dove into forums early on and they have always been one of the favorite and most treasured parts of the internet. It's not an exaggeration to say that HN is one of the best ever. The longevity is commendable, especially in an industry full of fads and flameouts.

                                                Dang and Tom, please keep doing what you're doing.

                                                • ddingus

                                                  yesterday at 6:14 PM

                                                  Observation:

                                                  How lucky are we that our contributions here warrant two fine moderators?

                                                  I just read Tom's brief story on how he arrived here and what it means and felt... I don't really have a quick word for it.

                                                  I know I am better for having spent time here.

                                                  Oh, I got it! A tiny bit spoiled, but in the best of ways. Yeah, that is what I felt.

                                                  How lucky we are indeed. :)

                                                    • BergAndCo

                                                      today at 2:48 AM

                                                      Do you have showdead enabled to see how many good comments are being unfairly censored? Otherwise this is just survivorship bias talking.

                                                        • AlexeyBelov

                                                          today at 5:49 AM

                                                          I have! It's very rare that I see a comment being flagged unfairly. Sometimes it appears as unfair to me, but then I try to look from other angles in case it's just my bias.

                                                          Also, don't forget that it's mainly other users who flag, not moderators.

                                                          Also also, it's a bit ironic coming from a 3 months old account with already negative karma. I believe HN has a problem with users who create many new accounts and don't bother to understand "what is a good thoughtful comment" and change their behaviour.

                                                          • dang

                                                            today at 6:37 AM

                                                            If you see a good comment in the [dead] state, you don't have to complain about it being "unfairly censored" - you can intervene to fix it by vouching for it. This is in the FAQ: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsfaq.html.

                                                              • _Algernon_

                                                                today at 12:28 PM

                                                                That requires the user to reach the "small karma threshold". Difficult when the user you replied to has negative karma after several months of HN participation.

                                                                  • dang

                                                                    today at 2:05 PM

                                                                    The threshold is 30 karma. Anyone can easily reach that if they want to use HN as intended.

                                                            • _Algernon_

                                                              today at 12:26 PM

                                                              I have had showdead enabled for years and I think I can count the number of dead comments that didn't deserve the status on one hand.

                                                                • ddingus

                                                                  today at 3:43 PM

                                                                  Same.

                                                                  I turned it on very soon after I setup my account. My own personal tolerance for speech is less aggressive than what we see here on HN. I dislike completely inaccessible history, and basic accountability is why.

                                                                  Works like the trash does. Want to see how people live? Pick through the trash.

                                                              • gsf_emergency_2

                                                                today at 7:42 AM

                                                                I suspect that dang has been barely surviving the (e-)moderation-technology debt (Arc notwithstanding). Good to have a second, antipodal, guy take on the burden!

                                                                • saagarjha

                                                                  today at 6:37 AM

                                                                  Not many.

                                                          • GVRV

                                                            today at 6:09 AM

                                                            Congratulations Tom!

                                                            Tom (and Fenn) had rockstar status back when I was involved in university CS+Entrepreneurship clubs in Melbourne around 2009/2010 (mostly led by fine students at UniMelb, but I was helping spread the word at Monash) because they were the first(maybe one of the first?) Aussies to be accepted by YC. They always generously gave their time and advice at these student events, even dropped by the SiliconBeach networking meets to share their experiences and turned out to be exceptionally kind human beings in person. Definitely the right choice for moding this community!

                                                            • palmotea

                                                              yesterday at 8:17 PM

                                                              > He has been doing HN moderation work for years already and knows the site and its practices inside-out, so the only new thing you'll see is mod comments from Tom showing up in the threads the way mine do.

                                                              I wonder if there are any other secret moderators.

                                                                • apocalyptic0n3

                                                                  yesterday at 8:48 PM

                                                                  We're all secret moderators except you.

                                                                    • Cthulhu_

                                                                      today at 9:26 AM

                                                                      I thought we were all bots?

                                                                        • apocalyptic0n3

                                                                          today at 2:26 PM

                                                                          Both can be true.

                                                                      • hakaneskici

                                                                        yesterday at 10:25 PM

                                                                        This would have been an epic April 1st joke :)

                                                                    • Raed667

                                                                      yesterday at 9:02 PM

                                                                      If you reach 160'000 karma you can see the secret mods

                                                                        • Full_Clark

                                                                          yesterday at 10:22 PM

                                                                          was really hoping the threshold is 65,535 because I'm much more likely to reach it counting backwards.

                                                                          • saagarjha

                                                                            today at 6:37 AM

                                                                            At 1 million you become a secret mod. Or so I hear.

                                                                        • diggan

                                                                          yesterday at 8:59 PM

                                                                          If you flag, downvote, and/or vouch comments, you're basically already a moderator-lite yourself :)

                                                                            • dragonwriter

                                                                              yesterday at 9:00 PM

                                                                              Upvoting posts has a moderation-like effect (opposed to that of downvoting).

                                                                                • diggan

                                                                                  today at 12:49 AM

                                                                                  I dunno, I feel like that'd be "curation" rather than "moderation".

                                                                                    • today at 7:44 AM

                                                                          • milesrout

                                                                            yesterday at 9:35 PM

                                                                            There are many, I think? Dang has mentioned other moderators (plural) before, I believe.

                                                                        • codetrotter

                                                                          yesterday at 7:10 PM

                                                                          In the classic tradition of thinking that ā€œdangā€ is pronounced ā€œdangā€ and not ā€œDan G.ā€ I propose that we read ā€œtomhowā€ as ā€œTomh Owā€.

                                                                            • joenot443

                                                                              today at 2:06 PM

                                                                              Has Dan ever commented on whether the "dang" pronunciation was intentional? I too, was under the impression he just liked the twanginess of the word.

                                                                              I have people call me Joenot - in reality, this username was chosen decades ago by my mother, pairing Joe (my name) and Not(tawa) - my tiny hometown.

                                                                              Sometimes I wish I'd chosen better but like many names, once it's out there, it tends to stick.

                                                                              • DistractionRect

                                                                                yesterday at 8:17 PM

                                                                                If you torture it a bit, you can make it "tomorrow" said with a weird accent. To mh ow

                                                                                  • today at 2:24 AM

                                                                                    • justsid

                                                                                      yesterday at 9:16 PM

                                                                                      That is exactly what my brain auto completed it into when I read the headline

                                                                                      • dylan604

                                                                                        yesterday at 11:34 PM

                                                                                        So, like if you were from Boston?

                                                                                    • mkoubaa

                                                                                      yesterday at 11:39 PM

                                                                                      Towhom it may concern,

                                                                                      I prefer the dyslexic pronunciation of towhom.

                                                                                      • gameshot911

                                                                                        yesterday at 8:56 PM

                                                                                        > dangā€ is pronounced ā€œdangā€ and not ā€œDan G.ā€

                                                                                        WAIT WHAT?!?

                                                                                          • wildzzz

                                                                                            yesterday at 9:23 PM

                                                                                            I just assumed his name was actually "Dang" like he was Vietnamese or something.

                                                                                              • vpribish

                                                                                                yesterday at 9:53 PM

                                                                                                same. and when I learned it was Dan G I didn't accept it entirely. now it's a sort of superposition of them - and mostly a nebulous entity that maintains civil discourse - like something from a Miyazaki movie

                                                                                            • dang

                                                                                              yesterday at 9:46 PM

                                                                                              https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35463012

                                                                                                • frainfreeze

                                                                                                  yesterday at 10:49 PM

                                                                                                  How comes your karma points halved?

                                                                                                    • pvg

                                                                                                      yesterday at 11:00 PM

                                                                                                      That is natural canadon decay. Think uranium slowly turning into lead, that sort of thing.

                                                                                                      • ot

                                                                                                        yesterday at 11:43 PM

                                                                                                        Karma is stored in a 16 bit integer. It overflowed.

                                                                                                          • frainfreeze

                                                                                                            today at 6:33 AM

                                                                                                            That's cool

                                                                                                • foobarian

                                                                                                  yesterday at 9:35 PM

                                                                                                  I too realized this only like a year ago.

                                                                                              • youainti

                                                                                                yesterday at 9:38 PM

                                                                                                I think tom(a)how would work too.

                                                                                                • alabastervlog

                                                                                                  today at 1:31 PM

                                                                                                  "To mhow"

                                                                                                  Pronounced exactly as "to meow"

                                                                                                  • jxjnskkzxxhx

                                                                                                    yesterday at 9:12 PM

                                                                                                    [flagged]

                                                                                                • raphman

                                                                                                  yesterday at 5:46 PM

                                                                                                  Welcome, Tom! Y'all are making HN a place that I still love to visit every day. I find it awesome how dang et al. not only manage to keep spammers and trolls in check but also actively improve discussions by merging threads and asking people to behave.

                                                                                                  • koolba

                                                                                                    yesterday at 9:36 PM

                                                                                                    Would it be possible to give him a new username for this role like ā€œdarnā€?

                                                                                                    Then we can continue confusing the beginnings of comments that appeal to authority as interjections.

                                                                                                      • mindcrime

                                                                                                        yesterday at 10:25 PM

                                                                                                        Yes, and then the next two mods could be "heck" and "gosh"! Maybe "dadgummit" if the powers-that-be are feeling spicy. :-)

                                                                                                    • keepamovin

                                                                                                      today at 3:56 AM

                                                                                                      That's a great introduction and a great opening from Tom. HN gets a second public moderator is a good sign. You would have to be crazy to agree to this but I guess brave, too!

                                                                                                      It's always a site that's had dinner party vibes even tho it's so big. Weird! But the focus on curiosity and healthy is important.

                                                                                                      I'm sure the features of HN are already extremely well thought out and precisely balanced, but I guess this is as good a time as any to throw out a feature idea: you know how you can favorite stories and comments? I want to favorite users, too. Maybe privately. Because it's like a bookmark thing where I can come back and see what interesting ones are doing. Just makes sense to internalize it as a list rather than externalize it into a browser bookmark list, I think. But then again, maybe a private list or yet another list would be too much!

                                                                                                      • sctb

                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:12 PM

                                                                                                        Welcome, Tom! Sometimes I can't believe how good we have it here. Thank you both very much.

                                                                                                          • tomhow

                                                                                                            yesterday at 8:23 PM

                                                                                                            Sincere thanks to you too, Scott.

                                                                                                        • isoprophlex

                                                                                                          yesterday at 5:44 PM

                                                                                                          Welcome, and thanks for striving to keep hn the bastion of intellectual curiosity that it's been in the ~9 years since I joined. I get tremendous value out of this website, and I'm very grateful for the effort you all are putting in to keep it stable.

                                                                                                          • hakaneskici

                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:09 PM

                                                                                                            Congrats Tom!

                                                                                                            Thanks dang and other mods for protecting this sacred corner of the web for so long. You're the guardians of the best no-BS tech news community. It is truly an under-appreciated effort.

                                                                                                            Best wishes.

                                                                                                            • scrapcode

                                                                                                              yesterday at 9:17 PM

                                                                                                              I've (mostly quietly) enjoyed the "vibe" of HN for well over a decade now. It's certainly a major contribution to maintaining enjoyment in the crazy world of tech. Thank you for your contributions to this community which remains so special to an entire industry.

                                                                                                              • noleary

                                                                                                                yesterday at 5:35 PM

                                                                                                                Welcome, Tom! Thanks for supporting this community for so long. Your work is much appreciated!

                                                                                                                • interestica

                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:00 PM

                                                                                                                  > He's still kind and thoughtful, but he's going to post as tomhow from now on

                                                                                                                  I laughed at this phrasing. Welcome tomhow!

                                                                                                                  • edgineer

                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:21 PM

                                                                                                                    Great! Look forward to not noticing anything in particular changing around here. Seriously appreciate this site.

                                                                                                                    • layer8

                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:35 PM

                                                                                                                      I always wondered how HN manages to do moderation 24/7 around the clock. Australia makes sense.

                                                                                                                        • raverbashing

                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:39 PM

                                                                                                                          A lot of it boils down on dang being oversubscribed. And having some automations to help him

                                                                                                                            • layer8

                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:54 PM

                                                                                                                              What do you mean by ā€œoversubscribedā€?

                                                                                                                              Automation, sure. But people need to sleep sometime, and maybe also have some life outside HN, for mental health. ;)

                                                                                                                                • blackqueeriroh

                                                                                                                                  today at 2:28 AM

                                                                                                                                  I think what comment OP is saying is that dang was working more than was healthy - ā€œoversubscribedā€ meaning ā€œsubscribed above capacity,ā€ i.e. ā€œdoing yeomanā€™s work,ā€ ā€œdoing the work of two people,ā€ ā€œthat man is like a machine,ā€ ā€œdo you ever sleep, dude?ā€ etc

                                                                                                                      • wanderer42

                                                                                                                        today at 4:29 AM

                                                                                                                        Welcome Tom! And thanks Dang for tirelessly looking after the community. HN is one of the last few sane places on the internet :)

                                                                                                                        • yeahitsgreat12

                                                                                                                          today at 10:09 AM

                                                                                                                          How does such a large famous forum get by with 1 computer and 2 mods. Theres no spam here. No fighting. How odd for the internet in 2025 XD

                                                                                                                            • coldpie

                                                                                                                              today at 12:01 PM

                                                                                                                              No images. No reposting. No (public) popularity contest stats. A general vibe against politics posting. There's just not much here to attract the worst kinds of behavior.

                                                                                                                                • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                  today at 12:15 PM

                                                                                                                                  [flagged]

                                                                                                                                    • coldpie

                                                                                                                                      today at 1:12 PM

                                                                                                                                      [flagged]

                                                                                                                                        • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                          today at 3:48 PM

                                                                                                                                          [flagged]

                                                                                                                          • b8

                                                                                                                            today at 4:56 PM

                                                                                                                            Welcome!! I was worried for a second that you were the Fallout Tom Howard, lol.

                                                                                                                            • aberoham

                                                                                                                              yesterday at 8:33 PM

                                                                                                                              May we please have another mod based within GMT to round out this follow-the-sun pattern that's slowly rising

                                                                                                                              • airstrike

                                                                                                                                yesterday at 5:34 PM

                                                                                                                                I'm not sure if I should say "welcome" or "congrats" so maybe a little of both!

                                                                                                                                Moderation is a huge part of what makes HN so valuable, so it's good to hear dang is getting some much needed help as this place apparently won't stop growing

                                                                                                                                  • pimlottc

                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 9:50 PM

                                                                                                                                    "Well, grats!"

                                                                                                                                • ddingus

                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 5:57 PM

                                                                                                                                  Thanks Tom your work is appreciated and I'm sure will be appreciated going forward. There's a whole lot of us here who really value this place, and the many fine minds who share time with us in it, and you're a big part of that.

                                                                                                                                  • SOLAR_FIELDS

                                                                                                                                    today at 1:36 AM

                                                                                                                                    Thanks for the work you guys do, Dan and Tom, to keep this place a good and intellectually stimulating place for discussion. We appreciate you.

                                                                                                                                    • sebringj

                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:11 PM

                                                                                                                                      Congrats Tom. I wonder if a particular model could be used as a baseline for these values or if they are already doing that to check first level prior to a human in the loop? I myself have been using AI for this purpose and have found it getting pretty good. I know its not a replacement for thoughtful moderation however, a tailored model for HN would also promote the tradition of HN in terms of having it not just be about who is there and have it more trained on its best practices to promote consistency, possibly as an aid.

                                                                                                                                      • teruakohatu

                                                                                                                                        today at 7:31 AM

                                                                                                                                        Congratulations Tom. Great to see the antipodes represented on the HN team :)

                                                                                                                                        • hcmgr

                                                                                                                                          today at 8:27 AM

                                                                                                                                          Congrats Tom. Fellow aussie HN lover here. Keep up the good work.

                                                                                                                                          • rmason

                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 8:47 PM

                                                                                                                                            Welcome aboard Tom. Thanks to the efforts of dang HN has become an incredible community. I've learned a lot on here and made some great friends.

                                                                                                                                            • dskhatri

                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 5:53 PM

                                                                                                                                              Welcome Tom! I have been visiting this site (almost) daily for 17.5 years now thanks to the wonderful technical community and diligent behind-the-scenes moderation.

                                                                                                                                              • bisRepetita

                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 9:17 PM

                                                                                                                                                >I'm not going anywhere, so you'll have two of us to put up with going forward :)

                                                                                                                                                I thought that sctb was another one? No longer I guess?

                                                                                                                                                  • dang

                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 9:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                    Alas, not for a few years. He is greatly missed.

                                                                                                                                                • ksec

                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 7:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                  I want to say Welcome but Tom has been on HN for so long.

                                                                                                                                                  I want to say Congrats but moderating HN must have been a painful job.

                                                                                                                                                  So I guess enjoy, have fun and see you around. :)

                                                                                                                                                  • joe_hills

                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                    Congrats, Tom! Iā€™m glad to hear thereā€™s more than one moderator here so you can share the workload and hopefully relax well on your time off.

                                                                                                                                                    • eigenvalue

                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                      Welcome Tom! Thanks for helping to make this the highest signal-to-noise ratio forum in the general technology/business space.

                                                                                                                                                      • vessenes

                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                        Welcome Tom!

                                                                                                                                                        Thanks (in arrears and advance) for all the work here; this is the best forum on the Internet, and we owe much of it to you guys.

                                                                                                                                                        • OuterVale

                                                                                                                                                          today at 12:58 AM

                                                                                                                                                          This better not have any impacts on my capacity for mischief and shenanigans...

                                                                                                                                                          Anywho, welcome tomhow.

                                                                                                                                                          • eddyg

                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                            Congrats Tom! And thanks Dan! (Yes, I've been around long enough to know the "G" is for your last name! :)

                                                                                                                                                              • saagarjha

                                                                                                                                                                today at 6:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                I feel like it's a little unfair when it's coming from "eddyg".

                                                                                                                                                            • mathfailure

                                                                                                                                                              today at 12:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                              While tomhow is of course welcome, I want to express gratitude to dang for years of quite fair moderation. I've been around multiple communities and he's nothing like those power-tripping libera.chat or reddit moderators.

                                                                                                                                                              • jedwhite

                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                Congrats and welcome to the new public status! Forgive the non-substantive comment but that's awesome :-)

                                                                                                                                                                • jedberg

                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 7:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                  Welcome Tom! Wishing you good luck from this former Reddit mod -- I know how hard the job can be!

                                                                                                                                                                  • chrisweekly

                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                    Right on! Thanks and good luck and please keep the ethos / vibe going the way it improbably has for all these years. I've been active online since about 1998, and HN remains unique in my experience. Kudos as always to dang for the huge role he's played in that.

                                                                                                                                                                    • haloboy777

                                                                                                                                                                      today at 1:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome tom!

                                                                                                                                                                      I'm long time lurker on hn. Excited to see you as mod.

                                                                                                                                                                      • YeGoblynQueenne

                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 8:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                        Welcome and courage tomhow.

                                                                                                                                                                        • qwertox

                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                          Hi, I'm excited. I'm really wondering if you'll do such an excellent job like dang is doing. This is a really special community, and now it's in your hands as well.

                                                                                                                                                                          • theoryofx

                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 5:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                            One thing that I appreciate about dang, and PG before him, is their intellectual honesty and strong sense of ethics.

                                                                                                                                                                            On the face of it, HN should be terrible. It's a forum owned an investment firm as promotion for their business.

                                                                                                                                                                            But because HN was started by an individual with real values, and has been operated day-to-day by individuals that followed in his tradition, its been capable of unreasonable greatness and real authenticity.

                                                                                                                                                                            At this point, HN is sort of the tail that wags the YC dog. There are a great many seed funds but only one HN.

                                                                                                                                                                            It would be a good thing for the world if HN was spun out as a non-profit and maintained long-term. But in any case, we can all hope that it will at least continue to be stewarded by good people for a while longer.

                                                                                                                                                                            Good luck and thanks!

                                                                                                                                                                              • jdoliner

                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                > On the face of it, HN should be terrible. It's a forum owned an investment firm as promotion for their business.

                                                                                                                                                                                I think it's at least as plausible that this is part of the magic that makes it good. HN is sufficiently "on the margin" that they don't have to do things like placate advertisers with their moderation policies. The mods like dang, tomhow and pg mostly care about HN as users rather than owners.

                                                                                                                                                                                > It would be a good thing for the world if HN was spun out as a non-profit and maintained long-term.

                                                                                                                                                                                That sounds good in theory... in practice it might be the beginning of the end. Once there's a non-profit behind it the non-profit has a mission of its own. Although I'm actually not sure of the legal status of HN right now, maybe it's already something like that.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • graemep

                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 9:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    > I think it's at least as plausible that this is part of the magic that makes it good. HN is sufficiently "on the margin" that they don't have to do things like placate advertisers with their moderation policies. The mods like dang, tomhow and pg mostly care about HN as users rather than owners.

                                                                                                                                                                                    I agreed, and would say its stronger than that. Running HN well is great for Y Combinators reputation, and its focused on a relevant audience. I am sure that has to be very good for them.

                                                                                                                                                                                    > Once there's a non-profit behind it the non-profit has a mission of its own.

                                                                                                                                                                                    Absolutely. It happens a lot.

                                                                                                                                                                                    • Akronymus

                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 10:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      Over the years I've become quite jaded on non-profits personally. As they tend to appeal to the people who want to pursue an ideology rather than follow the goals of the non-profit. Which usually are at odds.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • bell-cot

                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:31 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                        Before even the "has a mission of its own" part, an independent non-profit needs to pay its bills. I suspect that dang & Co. aren't working for free. Similar for servers & internet connections & etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                        And I'd bet that few people here want to see ads, or start paying for their accounts.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • foobarian

                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 9:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                            It seems a lot like the Emperor Joseph II - Mozart situation or countless others like it through history. You could ask Mozart to start a nonprofit, find customers etc. but it sure is convenient when there is a Joseph II around who appreciates the arts.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • tomcam

                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 7:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                              I hope dang and tomhow get rich doing this job. I'd happily pay for HN too.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • sanswork

                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 8:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                People here see ads regularly which is how hn pays the bills. YC hiring posts and company launches are all paid ads in the sense that being allowed to post them is why YC funds hn.

                                                                                                                                                                                                • ZeWaka

                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I imagine 90% of users here would just block any ads anyways.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • frereubu

                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 8:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                            > It would be a good thing for the world if HN was spun out as a non-profit and maintained long-term. But in any case, we can all hope that it will at least continue to be stewarded by good people for a while longer.

                                                                                                                                                                                            If it ain't broke, don't fix it...

                                                                                                                                                                                            • throw_m239339

                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                              I was there since around 2015 and the evolution of that forum and its population/opinion has been very interesting, to say to put it mildly...

                                                                                                                                                                                              Remember when the biggest disagreements were about ORM & Frameworks? I miss those days. I didnt even mind the discussion about the ethics of Uber or Airbnb, but now, now it is different, & not for the better.

                                                                                                                                                                                                • djhn

                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 7:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've been here since around that time and to be honest, I haven't noticed much of a change for the worse. The world around us has changed, political life may have gotten slightly more complex, but the community feels just as friendly, curious and insightful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mettamage

                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Yea same for me. Nothing much has changed here. I guess it used to be a bit more technical? But just a bit (I miss the Dolphin emulator status updates - they got me hooked on the technical content posted on this site)

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Swenrekcah

                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 7:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    The whole western world is different and not for the better since 2015. Erosion of public trust since then is tremendous and regrettable so it is not surprising that we miss the communities that once were.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • sanswork

                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      So been here slightly longer and the only shift I can recall is a shift away from business to tech.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      Early days had a lot more discussion about the business side of startups and vc. Then it started shifting more towards tech too the point now where startup/business discussion is mostly limited to Show/Ask posts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • Karrot_Kream

                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 9:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          The loss of chatter around the soft skills around tech (so business but also UI/UX design, design patterns, organizational approaches (like holocracy), planning processes, etc) has made HN a lot less interesting IMO. If I just wanted the usual tinfoil hat FOSS BOFH content, then I can go literally anywhere else. Reddit, Matrix, IRC, Telegram, Twitter, Bluesky, Mastodon, they're all full of it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          Then there's the widening of scope to big social issues that's a different matter altogether.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • basisword

                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 10:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Is this because many of the soft skills you mention were in flux/being 'disrupted' 15 years ago and since then they've become the accepted norm? I enjoyed that content too but feel like it was a time where startups were changing the face of how companies operated and now most businesses follow those models and they're not yet ripe for change again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Karrot_Kream

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 10:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I honestly don't know. On the one hand you're right, we were in a time when startups were doing things like experimenting with holocracy. On the other hand, companies and cooperatives are still today experimenting with more efficient, equitable ways to get things done. I feel quite disappointed that so much of the anger over inequality in this community gets aimed at US or international politics rather than discussing things like corporate or cooperative structures which is both more grounded and more easy for many of us as practitioners to action.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  To me it feels more emotional catharsis than intellectual discussion; getting mad at politics is getting mad at something you can't control and so is more of a way to air out your emotions. Getting mad at corporate structure or envisioning a cooperative is something we can control and requires more rigor to engage with.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • basisword

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 11:17 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I guess we've had a massive change in terms of remote and hybrid work practices in the past few years. Sadly even those discussions become political or angry rather than good discussions of the pros, cons, and alternatives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • basisword

                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 8:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Been here since 2011 and reading for a few years longer than that. I don't think the site has changed, more that the world has changed (a lot). There isn't that general excitement around consumer tech and programming that there was 15-20 years ago. We've gone from talking about how we need to start teaching coding in schools to how we shouldn't bother because AI will be doing it anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        The fun has been sucked out of it all. It wasn't all that long ago that we were excited by simple but fun devices like the iPad Nano and Flip camera. Now we all have phones that can shoot Hollywood films, we can access all art every created on them, and we have watches that can save our lives...and we've got a bit too used to it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        On top of that around here we used to get excited about scrappy startups raising funding and trying to change the world. Unfortunately because a number of those companies went on to dominate the world in negative ways, exploit users and hoard wealth, people have become jaded and scrappy startups are less exciting because we assume they'll eventually do something loathsome 10 years from now.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'd love more framework debates, excitement, and creativity - but until the wider world is happy and positive again I'm not going to hold my breath.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • Karrot_Kream

                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 10:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I think HN has been gradually losing what makes it unique. The net is filled with BOFH-style pro-FOSS tinfoil hat tech content and has been since the early '90s. The joke among my college cohort about Slashdot was that IT Helpdesk 1 will have strong opinions on how MSFT execs were engaged in crazy conspiracies. You can find that kind of content anywhere that tech people talk. HN's value proposition for me has always been informed commentary; industry insiders, academics, and practitioners weighing in based on their domain expertise. Today's HN feels a lot more like a rumor mill for random people interested in tech. Along with this shift has been a widening of scope where we don't just talk about tech but also general politics. In general, HN has been gradually trending to be just another big tech subreddit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          These days HN reminds me a lot of Reddit r/programming in the early 2010s. To me this isn't a good thing because I used to come to HN to specifically get informed commentary. But there's no way for a site as big as HN to be dominated by informed content anymore because there just aren't that many people working on interesting tech in the world. So I do what most others do I suspect which is talk with friends from my alma mater and old jobs in group chats and share HN links and laugh at the unhinged, uninformed comments.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          I do think at this point HN has changed its appeal. I feel that people today are attracted to HN because of its raucous, rumor-mill feel rather than informed commentary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                        I really don't think that HN lets dissenting opinions thrive (well, not anything that is truly controversial but not clearly hateful). That may feel cozy but it's not a reflection of anything pure or good, imo.

                                                                                                                                                                                                          • jdoliner

                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                            My experience is that HN's Overton window is probably on average 15-20% larger than most forums. That's not uniform across all topics though. So if you skew toward a particular set of topics it may feel like a typical forum, or even in some ways more constrained.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                My feeling is it also depends on weekday vs. weekend, and on the time of day (or night).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • hbn

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 7:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  My issue is it seems like something has to only be a bit controversial to be completely hidden from everyone. There was the recent DF article about how Gruber thinks his articles are being artificially shitlisted and I can't help but agree? I don't necessarily think the mods have their fingers on the scale, but I wouldn't be surprised if the algorithm works in a way where if enough people flag something it gets automatically hidden, and there's enough people who see DF and automatically flag it that those blog posts get hidden every time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That site had 11 major frontpage threads in the last year, which is a lot.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Every single one of them set off the flamewar detector. That's extremely unusual. If it were one or two I'd call it random, but 11 in a row, whatever the reason, is not random. We turned off that software penalty on about half of those threads.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • yorwba

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 8:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          In his article https://daringfireball.net/2025/03/the_website_hacker_news_i... he mentions several times that he is aiming for "comment traction," treating articles with more comments than upvotes as successful while complaining that recently there haven't been as many comments.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It does make sense that DaringFireball would consider starting a flamewar a job well done, but of course HN is optimizing for the opposite.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • dredmorbius

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 11:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              HN's "flamewar detector" (I prefer "spiciness indicator") is one of those tools I'd been highly skeptical of, and still have significant issues with, but ... it does in fact work much of the time. It's where it doesn't work that the problems really manifest.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'd come to that conclusion after scraping all "past" front pages from 2006 through May-ish 2023 and doing a number of analyses of that corpus. (I've commented on that a few times here on HN and on the Fediverse.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              One of the absolute spiciest discussions ever was a pg post about HN itself. Which suggests that when a topic of of direct interest and familiarity, people will tend to hop on it. There are also a great many flame-y threads, though note that by virtue of making the front page, my sample probably skews to less disastrous threads with the absolute sh*tshows being well below the top-30 fold.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Among other weaknesses, spiciness doesn't distinguish between pure troll/clickbait threads, and those on which there's a significant and justified spread of opinion. As such, the metric makes hard discussions even harder to have, though mods can and do turn off the penalty on request (often many hours after the discussion's started, for obvious reasons, which is its own penalty). I do wish that HN could have those discussions, and I've thought and written (both on HN and in emails to mods) about what that might entail. I'm coming to the long-delayed and somewhat regrettable conclusion that it's not the right tool for that particular job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 9:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Or - he's critical of SV and large tech companies?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 2:14 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    HN is replete with criticism of these things.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 9:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      He's known as an advocate for and analyst of (sometimes critically, often less so) one of the biggest, richest technology companies in the world. That's his whole gig.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • today at 7:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • J_Shelby_J

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 7:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I follow the HN subreddit and routinely see very active threads that arenā€™t in the feed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • tracker1

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Strong disagree here... While there are definitely those that will bury some opinions with downvotes, there are others that will upvote. Conservative, Libertarian, Progressive, Liberal and even outright Communist views get expressed in varying comments and that's just political leanings.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I only really recognize this because I'll be actively reading/replying sometimes and see comments go +/- 2-3 up or down votes back and forth on the same comment. While you may be at say -2, that's just the aggregate. I sometimes wish I could see the total up/down votes just out of curiosity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • yesterday at 6:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Then you're not spending enough time reading the comments on controversial stories. Disagreement is alive and well on HN.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • xboxnolifes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I disagree. People will frequently say that downvoting is not for disagreeing, but in every controversial thread dissenting opinions are quickly downvoted and frequently flagged. Some recover, but many die or end up pushed down into obscurity.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Mildly controversial opinions sometimes survive and get discussion, but anything past that rarely get a reply and just get downvoted and flagged into oblivion. This isn't exactly a slight against HN, as this happens basically everywhere past a tiny userbase community. But I don't think it's particularly right to put HN on a pedestal for its ability to handle controversy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • infecto

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 7:01 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I would also argue that shutting certain posts down early is what helps it thrive. Maybe you lose some value of topic but you gain the ability to discuss other things in depth. You also prevent pollution of discourse.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • yesterday at 7:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 7:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    There are over 1,200 comments on this controversial story alone, with plenty of debate within: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43517833

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What more evidence do you need that spirited disagreement is alive and well here?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • dooglius

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That seems like a pretty mild controversy to me. How many people could even say whether their water has added fluoride?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 7:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What kind of evidence would satisfy you, then?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • dooglius

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 8:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I have `showdead` enabled. It should not be the case that I find flagged posts that are good -- that are well written, don't break rules, etc -- but are flagged (presumably) due to expressing a dissenting view.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 8:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    That ā€˜presumablyā€™ is doing a lot of lifting and would be better supported by some examples of such posts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • dooglius

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 12:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That's fair from your perspective -- although the parent's question is what would subjectively satisfy me. I don't keep a log of such instances, and I don't see a way to view my vouched posts, but it is something I observe often enough.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 12:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Sure, but the reason that question is being raised is so that we can decide for ourselves how good your evidence is - both conceptually and concretely. It certainly doesn't mean you have to share it but it makes the discussion actually meaningful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Your vouched items should be visible to you at https://news.ycombinator.com/vouched?id=dooglius

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • mh-

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 4:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Does that link only show vouched items of some recency? The page is literally blank (minus header and footer) for me, but it's probably been a week or so since I vouched a comment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                edit: sorry, I missed the sibling comment to this. I only ever come across dead comments, not posts. So I needed to add &kind=comment to see vouched comments.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • dooglius

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 2:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ah, I meant comments rather than posts (and I think flagging posts has a different meaning since one cannot downvote posts) but it looks like comments are visible by adding `&kind=comment`. Anyway, the most recent comment I vouched is https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43530295 which I think is a good example of what I'm talking about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 10:31 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 10:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The person youā€™re responding to is not Paul Graham. Similar handle but not identical.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > The people here are rather anti-compassion and any kind of spirituality. And how I was attacked for calling David Lynch a worthless purveyor of ultraviolence and vapid, wasteful lifestyles was unconscionable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Maybe your problem is not with your opinions but with how you choose to express them. My observation is that disagreement is rarely downvoted massively if it is expressed eloquently. OTOH, emotional and brief conclusory opinions that arenā€™t supported with narratives or supporting information that are also contrarian may be subject to mass downvoting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Looking through your comment history, I think youā€™re experiencing this phenomenon not because you respectfully disagree with others, but because of the quality of your communication.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 11:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The person youā€™re responding to is not Paul Graham.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    We're all Paul Graham! https://youtu.be/FKCmyiljKo0?t=65

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 6:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That sure explains a lot!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • gus_massa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 1:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You can vouch it, and if the comment is still [dead] but it's really good you can send an email to dang and tomhow hn@ycombinator.com Remember to include a link to the comment, and use it sparsely because it's a manual processes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • mh-

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 4:14 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Like the parent commenter, I frequently see high quality posts via showdead. I vouch them, but I've never seen one resurrected soon after. I rarely remember to go back and check hours later, but by then the thread has died down anyway.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • gus_massa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 1:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It takes a few vouches to unkill a comment. (The exact number is a mystery (I don't remember dang telling the number ever) and it may change from time to time (or not).)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  For not-bad comments just vouch them, but for very-good-I-will-not-be-able-to-sleep-until-it-is-unkilled comments vouch and send an email.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 7:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Downvoting for disagreement has always been fine on HN. People sometimes assume otherwise because they're implicitly porting the rules from a larger site, but that's a mistake.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16131314

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Karrot_Kream

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 10:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It has but I'm not sure this works at the scale HN operates at now. When the community was smaller, the band of opinion was narrower, so the downvote worked better. Now that the community is large I'm not sure if this scales well. Just a thought I've had over the last few years.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • boredhedgehog

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 6:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Wouldn't that only be true if the vote thresholds are absolute? If the impact of a vote is adjusted based on voters present, it should scale.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • Suppafly

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 7:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > People will frequently say that downvoting is not for disagreeing

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Those people are wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Sohcahtoa82

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 7:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Downvoting pushes peoples comments down and greys them out, effectively silencing them. It creates echo chambers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I reserve my downvotes for when arguments are made in bad faith, rely on logical fallacies, or present know-false information as an argument.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If someone presents an argument on something I disagree with, but it's made in good faith and is well-structured, it deserves an upvote, even if I still disagree afterwards.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 8:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Your very comment is now downvoted but not silenced. We all see it, as we do every grey comment, as long as one works their way down the comments page. Not every comment is going to be agreed with and rise above the fold, and thatā€™s ok.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 10:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          So you understand how echo chambers are created and are fine with it?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The problem is that there is no one with power here that can come to the "little guy's" defence. There is no will around here for that kind of support, because the only people hired to wield such power are of like mind. DJT doesn't hire democrats, and this is no different.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Look at this comment section, and tell me this isn't an echo chamber.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 11:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I donā€™t understand what your response has to do with what I said. Differing opinions are welcome hereā€”particularly if they are eloquently expressed and factually supportedā€”but that doesnā€™t mean they will be popular. Thatā€™s just life. Opinions, like most things, follow a normal distribution.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 6:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Not every comment is going to be agreed with and rise above the fold, and thatā€™s ok.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > That's just life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Life is the result of what we choose, alone and in our groups, and groupthink creates a momentum that is hard to understand from within the group.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Only compassion gives us a clear and accurate perspective on life, my friend.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  And that's a fact, and its not being a factor in this site's m.o. is precisely why it is the way it is, why it is staffed by whom it's staffed by, and why its founder has the Twitter profile picture he does and why he rails against DEI.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  It's also why your opinions are so valued here, and why you don't understand what I said.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Perhaps you won't be so privleged some day and then you will begin to really understand what life is really about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Without such a gift from life, you will most likely just continue to think you understand, while asking far fewer questions than you should.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  What role does compassion play in your life? That is the most genius question you can ever ask yourself, and is really the only one worth either asking or answering.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That fact is never accepted as truth by those who already "know it all". Such is the way of "facts". Unless your knowledge base is founded upon compassion, nothing truly eloquent will be perceived as such. Such is human life, my friend. All the rest is just mammalian, when it comes to human beings in their groups.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Is your group founded on compassion? That you don't value it does not mean it is not the most valuable concept in the universe.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "The Way goes in." --Rumi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • lordfrito

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >> Disagreement is alive and well on HN.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > I disagree.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Head explodes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • xboxnolifes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 7:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I had a whole paragraph that I removed that was to preempt this reply, but I thought it wasn't needed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • ep103

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 7:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  We don't delete posts unless their authors ask us to. The most that happens to a user-flagged or otherwise moderated post is that it does into the [dead] state, and [dead[ posts aren't deleted. They remain visible to anyone with 'showdead' turned on in their profile.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If anyone wants more, here's a longer explanation from the other day: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43538728.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • realityfactchex

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > The most that happens to a user-flagged or otherwise moderated post is that it does into the [dead] state...They remain visible to anyone with 'showdead' turned on in their profile.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And that is a huge reason why HN's flagging/moderation is rather good! Thanks for the good system.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • perching_aix

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Is that a moderation issue? Because to me that's more of a system / culture issue.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You can't argue in people's stead. If most dissenting commentary is hurtful, inciteful, manipulative, generally demagogue, etc., it's going to get culled, and you get a situation where "dissent isn't thriving".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Teever

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Moderation drives culture and should in the very least offset the worst tendencies of culture.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Otherwise, what exactly is moderation for?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • perching_aix

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 7:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Moderation does participate in the culture of course, but I disagree that it would drive it necessarily. You can only do so much by reminding people to align with the posting guidelines and removing ill fitting posts and individuals.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Teever

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        This place would look like 4chan if it wasn't for the moderation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Moderation absolutely drives the culture, by setting a tone that drives away certain users while attracting others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        In other words what ever issues a site has are inherently due to moderation whether it be a choice on the part the moderators or a lack of resources to moderate as they would like to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • perching_aix

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 9:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't think we're actually disagreeing. Yes, moderation is key, but ultimately people post the content. As you say, it's a matter of attraction. But if the target group of attraction is empty, there's no amount of moderation that can help that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • infecto

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think itā€™s a tough balance because you want discussion but certain topics have diminishing returns.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • pstuart

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm not sure about that, but a lot of it depends on what you consider to be "dissenting opinions".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • kccqzy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Personally I hope Tom will bring new moderation policies that will truly let unpopular opinions thrive, but I don't have high hopes here since this is just an announcement of a new moderator, not an announcement of new moderation policies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Not thriv[ing]" is not the same as being quashed. Minority opinions don't always rise to the popularity or acceptance level of majority opinions, and that's OK.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • kccqzy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Let us not use the word "thrive" or "quash" to avoid misunderstandings. To rephrase, I hope that on HN even minority opinions have reasonable rebuttals. Unfortunately what currently happens is people flag minority opinions with no discussion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 8:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "flag" and "downvote" are two different tools with two different purposes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "downvote" seems more appropriate for for "this is not interesting and should be less prominent".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "flag" seems more appropriate for "this should not be here at all".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                By way of an example, on a political story, if you say something merely unpopular, you'll get downvotes and replies; if you say something hateful, you'll (usually) get flagged.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • kccqzy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 8:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I agree with you, but that's not what happens for polarizing topics that are technical in nature and not political. People on HN seem to flag comments rather than downvote them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I agree that that's not a best practice. It's not what the downvote mechanism was intended for.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • tracker1

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      In a way, iirc, it really is. It's as much a "I disagree" as it is "I don't like this". That said, I would like to see more people actually respond in addition to a downvote.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't think that's generally a function of the moderators though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 10:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Flagging is used by people who have no rebuttal but are mad.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        That's why I have only flagged one or two posts, ever, but not because I was mad, but because the comment was just plain beyond the pale.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        And my posts against portaying violent rape in film got flagged.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Make it make sense, because I understand the failure of this system because systems are my trade-in-craft.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • jraph

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 1:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Nope, sometimes I would have a rebuttal but flagging is the better option (constructive discussion is hard without mutual respect, and/or don't feed the troll). Or, the comment doesn't even have anything to refute, it's just disrespectful or it's spam, or both.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have flagged a few comments but I'm rarely mad.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            And if one is mad because of a disrespectful comment, the flagging is probably appropriate too.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 5:32 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > constructive discussion is hard without mutual respect

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yes, indeed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • AlexeyBelov

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 5:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > Flagging is used by people who have no rebuttal but are mad

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This is cope, just like "I'm being downvoted for speaking the truth!". Nobody thinks "wow, they said a true statement, I should downvote them".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I suggest you try to steelman the idea of flagging and see that maybe there could be other things at play.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 6:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > Nobody thinks "wow, they said a true statement, I should downvote them".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Precisely. That's the biggest problem with closed-minded fools.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • hackyhacky

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                There is a difference between expressing unpopular opinions (e.g. "manifest V3 is good"), which receive an appropriate level of considered disagreement; and expressing opinions that are removed administratively.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                In my experience, the former is quite common, while the latter only occurs in cases of hateful or off-topic comments. That is as it should be. No one is obligated to agree with you, and that fact should not dissuade you from expressing yourself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • maccard

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Iā€™m a fairly steadfast holder of the ā€œI like apples walled garden, itā€™s my choice to be thereā€ argument, and I think as a dissenting opinion on this forum I get a lot of flak for it. But thatā€™s not a moderation problem, itā€™s the fact that my opinion is different and I have 10x the number of people disagreeing with me than agreeing with me.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • stuartjohnson12

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 9:26 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Upvoted, but your opinion is wrong and I didn't want to leave without telling you I hate your opinion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • buttercraft

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > having the opinion

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    What I see a lot of is this:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    User posts "$opinion $generalization $snark $dismissal $adhominem".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    User gets down voted or flagged. User complains that downvotes are for expressing $opinion and that $opinion is not allowed on this site!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    But we can all see the other things in their post that probably brought on most of the downvotes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • ziddoap

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree. "It's not what you said, it's how you said it.".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Most stuff I downvote is because of the way it's expressed, not because of the opinion itself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > For example, having the opinion that manifest V3 is good for users is an opinion that will not thrive on HN.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That's not a moderation issue. You can post that opinion, and people will disagree with it, post responses to it, and downvote it. It will not be flagged out of existence, unless it's also violating site policy in other ways.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • tptacek

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 9:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As someone who actively believes Manifest V3 is good for users, I second this: my opinion is not suppressed by this forum. It's simply unpopular among nerds, the population to whom this forum is aimed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • nailer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            A polite well worded post that disagrees with the mainstream will indeed still exist, but it will be moderated to unreadably transparent and hidden by default. Itā€™s not a great experience.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Meanwhile personal attacks and hyperbole regarding Elon Musk and Trump have become very common on HN.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 7:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > A polite well worded post that disagrees with the mainstream will indeed still exist, but it will be moderated to unreadably transparent and hidden by default. Itā€™s not a great experience.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Speaking from personal experience only: I have mostly not observed "polite, well-worded posts disagreeing with the mainstream" get downvoted to oblivion, unless some other factor also applies, such as that they're also things that seem likely to lead to a rehashed old-as-the-hills disagreement with no new information that will not on balance change any minds.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                If you post (by way of example only, please observe the use-mention distinction here) a polite version of "ads are good and adblockers are stealing", and get a massive pile of downvotes, I think that's a reasonable signal that the community isn't interested in seeing iteration 47,902 of that argument, and has no expectation that anything new will come out of that argument. If you have something new to say on that topic that is likely to lead into new and interesting arguments, at this point you would need to signpost that heavily, prefacing it with some equivalent of "Please note that I'm aware this is an age-old argument, but I think I have a new point to make that is worth considering", and then actually make a new point, at which point I think you're less likely to get downvoted to oblivion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Personally, I don't downvote "mere" disagreement. I downvote (among other things) what seems to me to be uninteresting or thoughtless or insufficiently diligent disagreement, or factually incorrect information, or anything that seems like a discussion that spawned from it will not be interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Now, that said, another factor here is that some people posting on political topics in particular believe they're making "polite well-worded posts disagreeing with the mainstream", and others do not share that belief and flag it to oblivion. For example, posts expressing bigotry mostly get flagged, no matter how surface-level "polite" they are.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • nailer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 8:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > If you post (by way of example only, please observe the use-mention distinction here) a polite version of "ads are good and adblockers are stealing", and get a massive pile of downvotes...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Sure, I imagine the grandparent poster means arguing something like "limiting access for extensons is good because they're often used to steal financial assets". Old extensions are sold, or cracked and updated to inclue malware.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 11:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I want to avoid letting a meta-level conversation slip into object-level. But using the object-level as an example, I would expect a comment that acknowledges the types of things that are hard to build with Manifest V3, particularly more advanced adblocking, and acknowledges that there need to be solutions for those things, and makes the point that letting extensions be all-powerful does lead to problems and that also needs solving, would not get downvoted to oblivion. That's much more nuanced than, for instance, suggesting that Manifest V3 is an unalloyed good with zero problems, which I would expect to get downvoted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • today at 11:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • nailer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 11:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > acknowledges that there need to be solutions for those things

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Why is this required, in order not for the comment to be downvoted to oblivion? You may be confusing bias with nuance.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 11:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I'm giving an example, which to some degree was meant as an existence proof of a way to support an unpopular position without getting massive downvotes. "X is entirely good with no problems whatsoever" being replaced by "I think the benefits of X outweigh the costs, and here's some acknowledgement of the costs". I'm not trying to suggest only one possible way to do that, or only one pattern to follow. (This is one danger of using an object-level example.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • nailer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 1:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      OK. Yes I agree thereā€™s a cost to anything and acknowledging that is important.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Downvoting and flagging is not moderation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Flagging does seem to primarily be a tool for moderation. But for comments, at least, I've mostly not observed flagging being used to hide things that shouldn't be; if anything, I think flagging is underused on comments.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        (It's still regularly abused on stories as a downvote, perhaps in part because stories don't have downvotes. HN sometimes "rescues" stories that get over-flagged, but it's still a problem.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 7:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Flagging isnā€™t done by moderators, itā€™s done by regular HN users.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 7:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I didn't say it was done by moderators, I said it was a tool for moderation. Flagging is the means by which regular HN users perform moderation activities, in addition to the actions available to the moderators.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 7:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Ok, I see. I understood ā€œmoderation policiesā€ upthread to refer to what guides the actions of the moderators.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Fair enough, I can see from the thread how that interpretation could arise. I would definitely interpret "moderation policy" to be policy implemented by moderators. In this case, I was responding to the statement that "flagging is not moderation", and I thought it was useful to distinguish that flagging semantically is a kind of moderation (done by users rather than by moderators).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 8:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            For me the difference is that moderation by moderators is (usually) guided by some content policy, and one can disagree about the biases of the specific content policy, or disagree about applying a content policy based on topics and themes at all (as opposed to based on mere style and civility). With user actions, there is no predefined content policy, itā€™s just how the set of users who happen to read the specific thread or comment happen to feel.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Personally, Iā€™d prefer no up-/downvoting and flagging at all (or flagging only to alert moderators), and purely chronological threading. But I also think that active moderation and crowd-sourced ranking mechanics are two different things.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 8:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > Personally, Iā€™d prefer no up-/downvoting and flagging at all (or flagging only to alert moderators), and purely chronological threading.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think that's a very different kind of forum, and it needs different tools to be usable, and it more quickly fails into unusability.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 8:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Itā€™s how old-style forums work, and Iā€™m still on a couple of them. It functions quite well with the right moderation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • JoshTriplett

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 9:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        It can work, but I think it's harder to scale to something the size of HN without losing some of the important properties HN has.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For example, I think it's useful that on balance the top few comments and their discussion are likely to be interesting, and the last few comments are unlikely to be interesting.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • yesterday at 6:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I agree it depends on the definition. Quite honestly my vibe, and really that is all it is for any of us discussing this, is pretty much anything more aggressive than my comment above (or even including my comment above, once more people read it).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I definitely DO NOT mean clear hate speech, etc.. that's not my point at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • alwa

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I, for one, come here in substantial part for the norms against aggression and toward calm substantive discussion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Shouting matches and rhetorical posturing are exhausting. There are places for thatā€”most places online, anymore; this is not one of them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • mac-mc

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So, do you mean you don't like tone policing? You can say pretty much anything as long as the tone stays intellectual and doesn't go into brain damage politics, harassment, or conspiracy zone where it's being banned because it's off-topic and, frankly, exhausting and unproductive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 3:18 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No, and if you read the tone of my posts and even the tone of dang (and others) here I would argue that my tone is not out of line and arguably more polite.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      But I'm the one that is rate limited in this thread and prevented from interacting with people politely.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • airstrike

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On the one hand, I think it's a bit unfair that this comment is currently downvoted as it's discussing moderation on a topic about moderation, so very much on-topic in this particular submission.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            On the other hand, I think it needs to be more specific in order to be valuable feedback. Which dissenting opinions? Can you provide specific examples of comments you think got unreasonably flagged?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            There's been an uptick in political posts which are off-topic per the guidelines, so an uptick in the absolute number of flagged submissions would just mean the community is properly enforcing the guidelines, which is good. However, as a consequence of that uptick in political submissions and flagging, there's also an uptick in the number of users complaining a post is unjustly flagged, because they incorrectly conflate enforcing the guidelines with political opinion, and that is not good.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I think a lot of users are tired of this back and forth, so my guess is they are reading between the lines of what you said (since you didn't provide specifics) and filling in the blank with what _they_ think you mean about undeserved flagging, with the topic of politics being top of mind at the moment. This shows that being specific helps both by providing actionable feedback while also increasing clarity, which is your responsibility as a communicator.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My understanding is that flagging does not imply moderation. When enough people flag a comment, it becomes dead automatically. There is, separately, the case that a moderator ā€œkillsā€ an unacceptable comment, but then it only appears as [dead] I believe (unless it was also being flagged by people). Someone correct me if this is wrong.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • airstrike

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 7:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Moderation by the community is still moderation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Well, you can call it that, but there is not a singular will or policy behind what is getting flagged, and the HN ā€œcommunityā€ isnā€™t homogeneous. HN users can also ā€œvouchā€ to counteract flagging. It only takes a single vouch to un-kill a comment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • ttepasse

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 8:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The value of "enough" is a moderation decision made by a human.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 8:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Itā€™s not a decision made per individual submission or comment, I think. Of course, the specific automated mechanism exists because some human decided to implement it. My point is, in the case of the flagging mechanism, itā€™s not the moderators who are deciding based on the contents of the submission or comment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • yesterday at 9:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • jszymborski

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Little ironic considering you're the second comment everyone sees on this thread at the moment.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Etheryte

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      A sample size of one doesn't really tell you anything in this context. HN definitely has a pretty heavy bias in some directions, it's mostly that the crowd that naturally flocks here tends to mostly agree on those topics, so you don't see conflict too often.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • jszymborski

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I feel like I often get into protracted discussions here in which I am defending a minority view, but I don't feel discouraged from doing so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          A huge part of that is that the tone is almost always civil and the arguments are typically in good faith.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • asveikau

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I downvoted it because it bears little relation to this story, not because I disagreed with it. It's basically complaining that they're not getting enough love from other members. The mods don't quash comments merely because they convey dissenting opinions; they quash them when they become toxic to the community.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • asveikau

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:31 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I guess you could say the comment is conflating the mod team and the community.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think the community can be pretty susceptible to groupthink and hyper-conformity, and there are tons of legitimate criticisms around that. But it's true that usually the mod team won't suffer directly from that, from what I've seen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 9:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    One personā€™s ā€œgroupthink and hyper-conformityā€ is a statisticianā€™s normal distribution.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • asveikau

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 9:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The words I chose are specifically meant to highlight the downsides.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        1. Groupthink has a negative connotation of the downsides baked in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        2. "Hyper" conformity (or hyper anything) is already saying that it is too much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I think it's well known and appreciated that without diversity of thought and opinion, a group or organization makes possibly locally optimized, but poor decisions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • otterley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 9:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I know you were, and itā€™s troubling. Youā€™re ascribing a sinister character to a literally normal phenomenon merely because you disagree with the outcome. And a normal distribution anticipates diversity within the sample: if there were no outliers, the distribution wouldn't look the way it does.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This kind of thinking led to the term ā€œmainstream mediaā€ becoming a pejorative term, even though it fairly represented the majority viewpoint. In a well-informed society[1], one should expect the majority opinion to be the one closest to objective truth. (Consider the old ā€œguess the number of jelly beans in the jarā€ experiment.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            [1] Yes, I am aware that this condition is doing some heavy lifting. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • asveikau

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 10:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                But your way often leads to mediocrity. There are major success stories about being able to buck the consensus and trends and not be concerned with conformity. Including my own career success. But many other examples in many fields as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, let's see how that plays out first, I did just post it a few minutes ago (refresh has me at 0 karma fyi)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • Lerc

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It is a shame that people will downvote a thing that is expressing an honest opinion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I can't really relate to the mindset of people who use downvoting as a 'I disagree' button.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't think this extends to the way that HN is moderated or run. It is worth looking at dang's posts every now and again to take in the job that he does and how patient he can be, even with antagonism aimed directly at HN or himself personally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              From time to time I also have a look at the histories of some of those antagonistic people. Frequently there are signs that their behaviour was not always like this. Recent posts might be outright abusive and sound like the postings of angry teenagers. A few years earlier they might have been posting reasonable discussions on their thesis topic or tutorials on some useful subjects. Keeping that in mind helps you realise that these are real people and there may be other things going on in their life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think there are some good things to learn from people who work with addicts. You can simultaneously challenge bad behaviour and be compassionate to the person who committed it. Similarly, this is why I'm not a fan of cancelling people or holding them forever accountable for past bad behaviour. If they recognise that their behaviour was bad and are endeavouring to not be that way again, I don't think permanent ostracism benefits anyone. If anything it restricts people to a community that amplifies their negative behaviour.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 7:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I can't really relate to the mindset of people who use downvoting as a 'I disagree' button.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's a valid use of the button by design, HN is literally made to allow for that use. Plus it mimics real life interactions - there is a social cost/friction to saying things people disagree with or think are outright wrong. Most online chitchat places deteriorate because they remove such social frictions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Lerc

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 10:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I would say it mimics real life interactions of some communities. I do not think that is universal. I tend to think that the communities, in real life and online, that permit civil discussion of dissenting opinions are the healthier ones.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I think there is a far greater real life social cost in violating standards of behaviour, such as aggressive engagement, or acting without empathy. I would argue that it is those influences that can be lacking in online discussions that cause them to deteriorate. There is also a lower barrier of entry for joining an online community than joining a real life community. A few dedicated but detrimental people can always evade safeguards and pollute a community to some degree, online communities being larger provide the possibility to each individual to do more damage, while also increasing the chances of there being individuals that would do so.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 10:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I would say it mimics real life interactions of some communities. I do not think that is universal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I would say this is straight up wrong. It is universal since it's fundamental to being a social animal. There's a cost to being at odds with a group. We do have all sorts of mechanism and rituals, formal and informal, to minimize or amortize that cost in all sorts of settings but it's still there and it's still essential. You look at the faces of your coworkers in a meeting in which you're making some unpopular proposal to see how it's going over and you feel the slight sting of recognizing the smallest hints of disapproval. It's built right into all human interaction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • Lerc

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 12:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I guess we shall have to agree to disagree there.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • wglb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 1:48 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    > I can't really relate to the mindset of people who use downvoting as a 'I disagree' button.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Downvoting is a legitimate expression of disagreement according to PG.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 3:25 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        He's probably wrong about it. Imagine if you could do that in real life.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • r00fus

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 12:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There are some shibboleths that you absolutely can't touch or you'll be downvoted rigorously. But less than on other fora.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • yesterday at 7:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • fossuser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Your comment being downvoted for suggesting dissenting opinions are not treated well on HN kinda makes your point. I agree in general and spend less time here because of it. HN is still not as bad as many alternatives, but I wouldn't say it's great for ideologically diverse views.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If you think your dissenting opinions should be popular, your opinions probably aren't all that dissenting. This person's dissenting meta-opinion is unpopular, it's still there and it's still being discussed. Discomfort is inherent in dissent, it's not people putting a lot of likes on your NormanRockwellFourFreedomsPainting.gif.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • fossuser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 9:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It's not that they need to be popular, it's that voting them down leads them to be dropped off from view (and makes it less likely dissenting views will be shared). Reddit is the extreme case of this where anything outside the majority group consensus is heresy to be voted down/hidden/banned.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Better sites don't do this and have in-good-faith discussion despite disagreement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 10:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Can you link some of these better discussions on better sites?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Dissenting views are regularly highly visible, often as replies to consensus views. Even better - well-argued counter-narrative/counter-conventional wisdom views regularly appear as top or highly ranked comments. That's because the people making those arguments do what sensible people do when making an unpopular argument - they put in the work to make their case more persuasive. They don't sit around complaining that the other kids don't listen to them, they care about their issue enough to try to work with human nature rather than hoping some magical technology will change human nature for them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • yesterday at 6:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • whalesalad

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • incoming1211

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The problem is HN is mainly left leaning so its difficult to have discussion at times as dang and the community will shut it down quickly as differing opinions are not welcome even if its factual.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (chances are people will downvote without comment or scream "ThAtS nOt TrUe")

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    (Love how HN proved my comment as correct)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (chances are people will downvote without comment or scream "ThAtS nOt TrUe")

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        > (Love how HN proved my comment as correct)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Please don't do this here. It's against the site guidelines (see the bottom: https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html), which guarantees downvotes, and then the combination of help-help-I'm-being-repressed and I-told-you-so is annoying to pretty much everyone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        As for "left leaning", see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=26148870 (Feb 2021). The specific examples are old now but there is an endless fresh supply from each tap.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Tadpole9181

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 8:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah, as someone who has criticized the mod team, saying you are biased is just laughable. You go out of your way to be as unbiased and user-oriented as possible. My biggest criticism is procedural, Dan and friends are doing good work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • lolinder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:35 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > HN is mainly left leaning

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is largely an illusion, as can be seen by the number of people complaining in the other direction about how wacko libertarians or MAGA or whatever dominate on here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          What you're actually observing is that HN is one of the more diverse public spaces you participate in and there's no personalized algorithm that filters the content to only show what you want. When your exposure to left-leaning content goes from <10% on an algorithmic feed to ~50% on HN, it feels like being overrun.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just know that it feels just as overwhelming to the left-leaning people on here, and they will jump to the same interpretation in the opposite direction.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • wordofx

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 7:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If 2 people end up in a civilised debate. Itā€™s not uncommon for people to flag and downvote the opinion they disagree with even if the opinion is valid or backed up with facts. Feelings get too hurt here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Tadpole9181

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's why you have to earn down vote and flagging privileges here. It's still abused, I agree.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • hnpolicestate

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's not left leaning, it's establishment leaning. But that's only regarding politics and social issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Sure but I'm not even talking politics! My comment itself was barely a criticism of HN and, yeah, downvotes don't matter - but it's exactly what I am talking about. Any push against that coziness/bubble is not tolerated.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I do think it's OK for some forums - if the community agrees - to say certain topics (like politics) are off limits.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I don't really think it's ok for a community to say discussion about what should be discussed is off limits... or being critical of policies, the bubble, etc...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • hackyhacky

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  > My comment itself was barely a criticism of HN

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Your comment is (a) off-topic and (b) smacks of a complaint about not getting enough up-votes. Neither of these areas are looked upon positively in HN. If this style of comment is your modus operandi, it may explain why your work is not well-received, and in short it has nothing to do with the popularity of your opinions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 3:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      With respect, those are two strawmen.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • hackyhacky

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 3:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          No, I am just describing your comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43559544

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 1:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's not off topic, as it's discussing moderation and the culture of the forum in a post about moderation & replying to someone discussing the culture, and I said nothing about upvotes. It is two strawmen without discussing any of the substance of my comments.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • RicoElectrico

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Yeah! Absolutely. They want the wheel to keep turning - and I do too, if I'm being honest! I get paid from the system like lots of people here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I just would like for more people to acknowledge that. IDK. Seems more honest and more fitting to what everyone says the HN culture "really is."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • megadata

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I think the fact that you're being downvoted for your comment proves your point.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • layer8

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  There is a difference between downvoting and flagging, and between flagging and moderating.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • rectang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The effect is the same ā€” the comment becomes unreadable.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • megadata

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I said nothing about that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • megadata

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      And me pointing it out is also being downvoted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ziddoap

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 7:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Probably because a single example at a single time point can't really be extrapolated to the entire platform across all times. The comment being downvoted proves nothing (as evidenced by the fact it's now upvoted to the 2nd top comment!)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          And this comment of yours I'm replying to will probably get downvoted because it's a complaint about votes that contributes literally nothing to the conversation (in fact, detracts from it).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • megadata

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 12:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > because it's a complaint about votes

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It's not a complaint. I'm just pointing them out. Without them I couldn't argue my case at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 7:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yes, because the comments are offtopic and against the site guidelines (see the bottom of https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            "I the noble freethinker, standing bravely against the mob" comments are boring and repetitive, and therefore always off topic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • roflyear

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 3:20 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                It's exactly my point that it's impossible to be critical of these guidelines on here, and I think that's a problem.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • altairprime

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      HN does not welcome dissenting opinions in certain areas of tech where the individual freedoms of techies come into conflict with status quo social harms to non-techies; so, for example, you wonā€™t see many HN articles about the ethical dilemmas of working at Palantir, how our industryā€™s libertarian foundations obstruct labor organizing today, what advantages the ā€˜brosā€™ receive in return for their misogyny, and so on. HN is a light-touch moderation site ā€” as libertarian as possible, in keeping with our roots ā€” so I certainly donā€™t hold the mods as responsible for the communityā€™s defensiveness in that regard. In general, whether tech or otherwise, itā€™s not possible for a community to welcome uncomfortable dissent against its own underpinnings without a heavier hand on the moderation wheel than is cultural acceptable for HN and for our community. That doesnā€™t mean that HN rejects all dissent ā€” certainly they may be other pillars of obstinance I havenā€™t personally identified and studied over the past fifteen or twenty years participating here ā€” but, yes, absolutely, HNā€™s community has zero tolerance for certain dissent.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • saagarjha

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 6:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          You don't see those articles because they get flagged instantly by users. You'll see plenty of comments on it though.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • iambateman

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I'm like 80% sure this is trolling as a tee up for all the people responding with "HECK YEA DISSENT IS HAPPENING." :D

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • nwgo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      [dead]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Akhilmurali

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 5:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Congratulation Tom! :) Thank you for doing what you do here. Appreciate it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • skeptrune

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 10:05 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome welcome! It's crazy to think of how relatively long-lasting HN's influence on startups and tech has already been.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • sramsay

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 10:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        The question is, who among is willing to be the object of tomhow's first official Unsportsmanlike Conduct penalty? ;)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • giancarlostoro

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 5:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Welcome Tom, thank you and Dan for helping to run one of the best corners of the web for many of us.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Curious that you both made new accounts, is that basically a similar thing to having a "root" user then? So you can't use a normal / previous account or it will ruin it? :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 5:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              No, it's just a device to mark the context switch and to avoid misunderstandings, since the previous comments were all posted without an implicit "mod" bit.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • giancarlostoro

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 5:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Ah that makes sense! Thanks for the clarification. It's always interesting learning how HN operates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • abnercoimbre

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 5:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Unsung heroes deserve praise. Cheers mate.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • vpribish

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 9:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Welcome! can we call you tang?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • burnished

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 8:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Nice! Thanks for the good work.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • ofirtwo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Good luck tom in your new role!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • taylorbuley

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 10:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Thanks for being a crucial part of this crucial part of my life, Tom.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • liamwire

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 9:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Congrats mate, hope itā€™s a smooth transition into the limelight for you

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • pavel_lishin

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 12:47 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I thought he was just a character from Cryptonomicon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • somelamer567

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 7:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          As somebody who's seen communities come and go over the last couple of decades, I cannot praise Hacker News highly enough. And we can thank the moderators for that. HN is like an oasis for me: polite, sane, and informative, and your values and principles really shine through, especially below the fold.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for keeping the standards so high here!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • philipwhiuk

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 10:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > He and Gackle have discussed diversifying their team, and adding a third moderator who is non-white, non-male, and, Bell joked, ā€œnon-balding.ā€ Gackle clarified: ā€œWe've talked to each other about that. But we wouldn't make it a requirement.ā€

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Without any negativity on Tom, whom I'm sure is excellent, I suspect you failed on this one @dang.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • BrutalCoding

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 11:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Tom has now put Australia in the spotlights :P

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              WA here, hehe. Congrats!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • KolenCh

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 8:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I thought it is an April fool joke about having Tom Holland as moderator.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                My bad.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • picafrost

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 7:15 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Great news and best of luck during this period of high tensions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • replwoacause

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Are mods on HN paid or do they just do it for the love of the game?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • neom

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 9:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Now that we have an Australian, suppose I'll have to change my tactic of waiting for dang to go to bed before being naughty, how annoying.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Nice to see another helper. Dan, you are truly wonderful and I hope you never leave us, however, I also hope this affords you some much deserved "time off". Welcome Tom, and how.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • SCUSKU

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome! Excited to be under your wing Tom! Thank you Dan!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • MortyWaves

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:42 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Whatā€™s the purpose of having a less clear username?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 7:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's about as clear as mine is. Weak binding between user handle and real identity has always been part of internet forum cultureā€”at least in the deep section of the pool that HN likes to swim in.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • danwills

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 8:09 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Thanks for taking on this role tomhow! It's seriously appreciated and I'm also heaps happy that there's now someone in Oz that can moderate while dang gets some no doubt much-needed sleep! Champions! Thanks for making HN so bloody choice! Over of the best places on the 'net for damned sure!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • adamc

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 10:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Thank you for what has to be a tough job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • kiddico

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              A: Welcome!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              And B: Just curious, what was dang's old longname?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • mpaepper

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 7:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Moin Tom,

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Thanks for putting up with the work - let's go!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • seatac76

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 7:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Warm welcome Tom! Hope itā€™s an easy gig.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • jdjdjdjdjd

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Any comments on this post regarding moderation at hacker news:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  https://daringfireball.net/2025/03/the_website_hacker_news_i...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 12:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Power means being able to ignore the naysayers.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What does that comic strip say, "Everything's fine."?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Most people desire nothing more than to ignore their own faults, unless they have the power to shut up their critics.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • toomuchtodo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 5:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Congrats Tom! Thank you for your service.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • coldfoundry

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 5:50 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Congrats! Keep on making HN what it is!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • zerr

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 8:20 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Isn't HN self-moderating with upvote/downvote/flagging? I have an impression that the notion of moderator comes from old forums (e.g. phpBB) where they didn't have those features.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Arainach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 8:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Votes are not moderation. Ignoring manipulation tactics, majority consensus does not mean that something is right, acceptable, or in line with site guidelines.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • bredren

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Welcome, Tom and thank you Dang.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • d-moon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 9:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Welcome! Just do your best.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • shrisukhani

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 5:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Welcome tomho!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • TheAceOfHearts

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 9:10 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Welcome tomhow. I really appreciate the HN community and the efforts from the moderation team at helping to shape it into what it has become.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • nailer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:33 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Tom what was your company in YC W09? And how did it go?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • broost3r

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 10:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Congrats and welcome!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • aemre

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:23 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Welcome Tom, it is great that you came to Dang's aid because I was starting to worry how much longer one person could do this great job brilliantly alone.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • altairprime

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Oh hey. Congrats, tomhow!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • NKosmatos

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 9:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Welcome Tom, all the best with your new role and thanks for being a moderator along with Daniel :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Itā€™s good to see MGR (Moderator Geographic Redundancy) being implemented on HN ;-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Using RAID as an analogy, we now have RAID 1 moderators so letā€™s hope to have RAID 6 soon :-P

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Ok ok, enough with the silly tech jokes and the smileyā€™s.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • catinblack

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Congratulations!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • the_arun

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 9:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Congrats Tom!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • simonebrunozzi

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 9:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dang, and Tom: I think it would be useful for you two moderators to use a "special" color, instead of the light gray that is used for any other username.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 9:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I've always resisted that, and I suppose it's fair to say pg did too. It feels like an unnecessary barrier between us and others.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • carstenhag

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 10:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      It does feel very natural on Reddit (where mods can enable a flag/green user name when it's a mod response).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Rendello

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 9:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I agree, it helps make HN feel like a special place.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • metadat

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 9:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      The best way to provide feedback is by emailing hn@ycombinator.com. I've received a reply to literelly every email I've ever sent (all credit to Dang and Co for being extremely kind and consistent in supporting my inner troll rehabilitation effort).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      There is no site mechanism to alert moderators about @mentions, and due to sheer volume of messages the site operators will typically never get to see your well-intentioned message.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This thread does have better odds of being read than most, though :) cheers

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • deckar01

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 9:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I believe the standard for annotating the utterance of deities is red text.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • johnisgood

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 9:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I propose it should be based on the specified accent color ("topcolor").

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • danbrooks

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 9:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome Tom!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • deadbabe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 11:53 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Thinking far ahead, is there some way we can train LLMs that will moderate the same way as dang?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • jimmyechan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 7:22 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Congrats Tom!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • ProAm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 11:32 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I have to say HN is one of the best moderated online forums/sites on the web. dang does a great job. Even when he disagrees with you and moderates he is open to communication, clarification and adult conversation. I really appreciate his work and have no doubt tomhow will do the same.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I will post this every year on moderator day as a sign of respect for this place. http://cosmonautdreams.com/images/dang.jpg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • zachwill

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 5:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Congrats, Tom!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • LinuxBender

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Good luck Tom. I do not envy the people that take on the work required to moderate this site while remaining unbiased and I am glad you are ready for the challenge. I am sure you will do a fantastic job.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • motohagiography

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  you (few?) do one of the biggest jobs on the internet. it's been a bit of a vice, but sufficiently rarefied that it doesn't lower anyone for indulging it. thank you.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  it's said that perfect means lacking nothing essential to its whole. I've often speculated about the mechanics behind it, but really, it's a product that I think achieves today what apple and a lot of others aspire to be, where it does something well enough that almost nobody stops to question how. even if - or especially, when - that's probably the most interesting question of all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  how do you replicate it? you can't. that's the point.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  may the odds ever be in your favour!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • EGreg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Welcome, Tom. Not easy shoes to fill! Moderation can be tricky.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • elorm

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 10:37 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome Tom, Thanks for all the hard work you've done in secret and in advance for what you're about to do in open.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • jpm_sd

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:10 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Welcome, Tom. Are you a Neal Stephenson fan? There's a memorable character in Cryptonomicon who shares your name...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ChrisArchitect

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Good Morning Oz! Congrats, you're on overnight duty

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • blatantly

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 7:45 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              G'day! 24/7 SRE coverage. Yay! R stands for respectability.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • YZF

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 5:57 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Congrats!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • clgeoio

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 5:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Welcome!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Natsu

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 5:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Welcome, Tom!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Schwobaland

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 5:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Welcome Tom - great to see, that both of you and yc cares for this important corner of the internet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • orliesaurus

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 3:02 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I immediately thought of the wrestler LMAO

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • MrMcCall

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 12:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For the kayfabe?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • nonrandomstring

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't envy any referee who hopes to keep politics and technology in separate corners and playing by Queensberry Rules. But good luck all the same.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • blatantly

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 7:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          When the technologists enter politics it is even harder!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • DeathArrow

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 7:03 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Welcome Tom and thank you for helping out this wonderful community.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Just out of curiosity, are you and dang payed for caring for this forum? It seems to me it requires a lot of time and dedication.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • jonbaer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 9:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Good luck Tom.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • SOLAR_FIELDS

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 1:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          [dupe]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • hhcoder

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:52 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            nice to meet you tom https://www.google.com/url?sa=i&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.profigh...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • tux1968

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 8:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Hi, Same Tom Howard from osnews.com ??

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • genezeta

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  That's Thom Holwerda.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • tux1968

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 8:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Well, that's an embarrassing mistake.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Thanks.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • genezeta

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 8:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Well, it is kind of similar. And for a split second you really made me think it was him, so it's not that big a mistake :)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • duxup

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 5:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                >He's still kind and thoughtful

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Me thinks the OP is really trying to dive this point home for some reason ...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                /s

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 5:56 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I was just trying to be funny but it's a point I'm happy to drive!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • pinoy420

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 11:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  [dead]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • breck

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 5:57 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    [dead]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • mariconrobot

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 10:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      [dead]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • farrarstan

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 1:14 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        [dead]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • belter

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 12:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Welcome to the job Tom. :-)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Could you or Dang please explain, why this post with 118 points and 121 comments in 3 hours, about news of the day highly relevant to anybody in Tech, only shows up on page 18?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43561253

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just trying to understand the algo...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • EcommerceFlow

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 5:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Tom, please fix the flag abuse problem. It's gotten to the point where I realize there's no point in commenting on many threads, given my opinions, some of which are very normal nationally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • kstrauser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 5:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              When I've found myself being publicly tsk'ed by the people around me, I've taken a moment to try go figure out why they disapprove of what I'm saying. It's been a useful life exercise.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • ceejayoz

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 5:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Sometimes you're right, sometimes they are. Sometimes, as the Rick & Morty quote goes, "Your boos mean nothing, I've seen what makes you cheer."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • kstrauser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For sure, but then the followup question is "do I want to spend my time and energy around a bunch of people I think are wrong?'

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ceejayoz

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 7:38 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If they're correct, maybe?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • kstrauser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 7:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              If they're correct, and constantly telling you you're wrong...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • ceejayoz

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  ā€¦ you have an opportunity for self-improvement.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Tadpole9181

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 8:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Often times, you comment not to change the mind of the person you're replying to, but to provide a rebuttal for the readers at home. If nobody challenges problematic ideology or corrects misinformation, it can spread like a disease.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • dkjaudyeqooe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 5:58 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Shouldn't that be directed to those with an agenda who and are flagging certain posts?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Those of us who complain about this highly targeted flagging just want to avoid censorship. I can't see how we need to reflect on this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • dpkirchner

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:02 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Forums like this are "censored" and that's a really good thing. We don't need a steady stream of (for example) hate for women, minorities, and trans people that you see on truly uncensored forums.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • fwip

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              This is correct. For the people who disagree, go read Slashdot at -1 for a while. Then pretend that you're one of the people who are targeted by that vitriol, and think about how much you'd read the HN comments if they were like that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • dkjaudyeqooe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I agree, but when that is abused because of a minorities' preference, then it's bad.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That's what's happening here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • dpkirchner

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I think we need to get specific -- what preferences are you referring to, and who is the minority?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    EcommerceFlow mentioned opinions that are "very normal nationally." I don't want to assume the worst so I'm trying not to read in to that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • bee_rider

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I mean, I donā€™t generally like to go over somebodyā€™s posting history because it feels like stupid very-online silliness, but they brought it up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        I see some unflagged center-right political opinions sometimes. It is stuff that a mainstream democrat would probably disagree with but find, like, not odious or offensive. Therefore I think they are just getting flagged because any political opinions here have a chance of getting flagged. This is how the website is supposed to work, if we as a community decided that mainstream political opinions were ok, the site would become a place to argue about what exactly is considered mainstream.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • cbeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  All illegal speech should be hidden from public discussion.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  However, it would be disconcerting if stating biological facts led to censorship on a forum that focusses on science and technology.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  The definition of "hate" has been stretched a lot over the last few years, and if that restricts discussion of facts and ideas, then it is harmful.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • kstrauser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One major problem is when people presume that their simplistic understanding of a subject is factual, and that everyone else is going off emotion. For example, some people will erroneously claim that the 2 genetic human options are "XX = woman, XY = man". Those seem to be the most likely combinations, partly because we don't collect DNA from 100% of the population and compare it to the observed anatomy, but they're clearly and documentedly not the only options.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Even without considering trans people, it's factually untrue that "XX = woman, XY = man, and those are the only possibilities." And yet, people who stopped at high school biology will argue until they're blue in the teeth that anyone with a more nuanced take is anti-science.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • biddlybop

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 10:31 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Yes and some people will also make scientifically inaccurate claims like "sex is a spectrum" and "there are more than two sexes" and "it is possible for humans to change sex".

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There's a great deal of misunderstanding around this topic. Having open-minded, interesting and reflective discussion about topics like this should however lead to greater understanding. But that is not possible if it gets flagged and censored.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • Zak

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        "Stating biological facts" is code for an opinion about how society should view trans people, which is off-topic for HN.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • cbeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            If stating certain facts is made illegal (by our democratically-elected representatives) then by all means HN will need to censor those facts for the sake of its own self-preservation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But until then, we should be free to state facts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > The old adage ā€œI may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend to the death your right to say itā€ was once a touchstone of liberal society. Having been involved for most of my adult life in areas of social debate, it was a phrase I once commonly heard. Not any more.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > Instead, public discourse is marked by efforts to find offence, destroy the character of opponents or ensure reason is smothered by emotional manipulation.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            > -- John Deighan https://www.thetimes.com/uk/scotland/article/banning-those-w...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • fwip

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 8:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                "Stating facts" does not mean you are following the other rules of the site.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                For example, if you irrelevantly post "My software is on sale now for 10% off and here is the link!" on every story, everything in it is factual, but it's spam regardless.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I'm sure your specific facts that you want to post are in service of a particular social or political viewpoint you are trying to push, one that the people flagging find either off-topic or odious. And, given that you refuse to elaborate on what specific facts you think are banned, reveals that you think you only can convince people by being vague about what specifically you mean.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • cbeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 10:04 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I'd love to be clearer about my common-sense, scientifically-backed viewpoints, but if I did so it might result in hostile action being taken against me. So I choose not to.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Not because I'm insincere about my views, or because I believe they are harmful - but because the activists pushing the ideological views I oppose have been demonstrably violent and destructive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • fwip

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 3:40 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • bee_rider

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 6:14 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  They are flagging posts that they see as pushing an agenda. There isnā€™t some official separation of agenda-less and agenda-full ideas.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • cbeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:19 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Posts that break guidelines should be flagged, and the bar should be pretty high.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I don't think there is a guideline that bans posts from "pushing an agenda" (which would be very subjective)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • dpifke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 8:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          From https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html: "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          "Agendas" are often ideological battlegrounds. I flag comments, even those I agree with, that I recognize from experience are going to lead to the same tired, off-topic debates and flame wars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Lately, I've also been maintaining a personal uBlock Origin filter list to hide certain prolific rule breakers. I would love if HN had an equivalent built-in "killfile"[0] functionality for auto-hiding submissions and comments. (This has been suggested to the admins, and was seemingly received favorably, but I'm sure it's a matter of resources.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          [0]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kill_file

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Teever

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:28 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            How do you feel about flags being public?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • cbeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 9:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That would be very positive IMO. It would expose bad actors.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                However, the bar for creating new accounts is low, so bad actors could create lots of accounts cheaply and use them for flagging. That's why I think flagging needs to be a privilege that requires a high user "trust level" - see https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43559629

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • AnimalMuppet

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 8:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I draw a distinction between posts and comments here.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Comments that are "pushing an agenda" are noticeable because they Just. Will. Not. Deviate. From. The. Party. Line. Ever. They will never acknowledge an opposing viewpoint's point, no matter how valid. It's not a good faith conversation, and it deserves to be both downvoted and flagged. When one side (or both!) is like talking to a brick wall, this is often what's going on.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Posts are harder. If user X posts articles pushing a viewpoint, that's harder to prove that they're intending to do that. Or it would be, except that user X will also usually be active in the discussion about the article, and their comments will fit the above pattern. If you see that, then you can say that the post was probably pushing an agenda as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • bee_rider

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 9:18 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Despite being a small-ish site, HackerNews does still suffer from the Reddit problem of having enough users that you often donā€™t get to really know anybody. Realistically most conversations here only go back and forth for like 3 or so comments on each side. I mean, the site is structured to promote that kind of thing; reply buttons start getting hidden after a point, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I donā€™t think anyone really can be convinced to deviate from a strongly held political belief in a handful of posts. At this point I think most people with any interest in politics have already seen every path through 4 or so posts around their opinions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Standard talking point, standard counterpoint, standard objection that the the counterpoint is not back by data, request for citations, citation, argument that the math was wrong, and by now the thread is a week old and weā€™ve forgotten about it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  So, I wouldnā€™t say it is an issue of people being bad faith or overly obstinate. Itā€™s just a bad format. Old phpBB boards and those sorts of sites were better for this sort of stuff, despite being mediocre, because at least you could remember who was who.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • AnimalMuppet

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 10:08 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      All right, here's an example. X makes a post on one side of a position. Y makes a thought-provoking reply on the other side. X replies with "So what's your point?" X either fails at reading comprehension, or X is trying to make it look like Y didn't have a point, because X doesn't have a good reply to Y's point, and X wants everybody else to not notice that Y actually had a good point.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I hate seeing that. It's a bad-faith argument. It's the sign of someone who's just there to argue, not to have a curious conversation. That is, it's a sign of someone who isn't within the spirit of the site guidelines.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      No, I don't think this is just my personal bias against that style of posting. It's fake and juvenile, and it has no place on HN.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Another way you can tell: When they're replying to 20 comments with the same 2 or 3 talking points. That's someone who's there to do battle, not to have a conversation. They aren't really replying to the 20 comments, either - they're just spraying the same canned responses all over the place. That's not a conversation; that's a tape recorder in transmit-only mode.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • aliqot

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:29 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I don't think the person getting flagged is always deserving of the dogpile. Your comment implies "you should take this time in timeout to think about your actions" which is just a gentler form of rhetorical struggle sessions, and not always warranted.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • kstrauser

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 7:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        For sure. I've had comments flagged that I thought were perfectly reasonable and non-controversial. My first reaction was to be angry and annoyed. But then my kinder angels suggested that perhaps I phrased my idea poorly and people misunderstood that I was largely agreeing with them, or at least very respectfully disagreeing. And then I decided to be more careful with my phrasing next time.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • bowsamic

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 5:57 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yeah the flagging is definitely much worse than it used to be. Iā€™ve seen very legitimate LLM critical posts with lots of upvotes and comments flagged

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Many people feel that flagging is worse than it used to be, but they don't agree at all on what should or shouldn't be flagged. That makes this feedback less actionable than one might assume.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      HN gets tons and tons of threads that are critical of LLMs, so it's possible that the ones you're seeing get flagged are just below median quality and/or overly repetitive of previous discussions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • Tadpole9181

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 9:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Hey, Dan. I'd be really interested if you could share more about the metrics. As the climate of the world around us has changed, I think a lot of us at least feel flagging has become a cudgel used to silence opposition. Me, for criticism of the current administration. Others, for their views on topics like gender.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Maybe we just care more and notice it about that subject now. Maybe it's always been this way. But while you often leave long comments that go into how these systems work and the struggles with trying to adjust them or understand of it's even necessary (good stuff), I would be fascinated to see a blog post or something where you really give us a talking to about the state of the community and anything y'all have been trying on your end.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Just a thought, obviously, you have a whole job moderating already! Have a good day!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • dpifke

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 10:25 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Dan and Tom can speak to this, but by my reading of the guidelines, "criticism of the current administration" and "views on topics like gender" are both explicitly prohibited:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              "Please don't use Hacker News for political or ideological battle. It tramples curiosity." (https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              It has nothing to do with being on the side of "the opposition" or "the man," it's because those sorts of posts inevitably lead to the same, repetitive, off-topic debates and flame wars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Flagging should be used as a cudgel against posts that break the rules. There are plenty of places on the internet to debate politics and gender; HN is not one of them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Tadpole9181

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 10:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  No, I'm talking about stories that are extremely relevant to hacker news and techies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Which is attested to by Dan repeatedly manually unflagging these posts afterwards, which is an explicit approval that these posts follow guidelines.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 11:44 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      stories that are extremely relevant to hacker news and techies.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That's a difficult argument to make, especially without examples because at the end of the day, everything is related/relevant to everything somehow. HN's on-topicness remit is not really 'extremely relevant to techies'.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • bee_rider

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:06 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    A political talking point can be nationally popular but still political, so, outside the scope of the site.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Anyway, which nation? I think we also arenā€™t allowed to push Communist party talking points here, despite that party being highly supported in some countries (not that Iā€™d want to, just saying, nationally popular doesnā€™t mean much).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • eddyg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:11 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        A lot of people don't read the Hacker News Guidelinesā½Ā¹ā¾ before submitting and deserve to be flagged. Quoting (emphasis mine):

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Off-Topic: Most stories about politics, or crime, or sports, or celebrities, unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon. Videos of pratfalls or disasters, or cute animal pictures. If they'd cover it on TV news, it's probably off-topic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ā½Ā¹ā¾ https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • nubinetwork

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            You say that, but there was a big thread on Val Kilmer on the front page this morning...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • kubb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                He died, I'm fine with making an exception for it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • milesrout

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 9:41 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Why? He isn't relevant to HN at all. Is every celebrity death newsworthy on HN now?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • kubb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 10:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Maybe he was significant to a lot of hackers. The death was also untimely, which reminds us to cherish the time we have. Many of us are in our 50s or 60s.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • bee_rider

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:30 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  This is not really mysterious or anything, though, right? They allow bending of the rules for stuff that is not likely to devolve into a big stupid political flame war, because, like, pick your battles.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Also Iā€™d expect there to be some annoying edge cases if they tried to ban that sort of discussion. I mean, Kilmer is not a tech person. But tech people die sometimes too. Arguably discussing their life as people is outside the scope of the site. Maybe we shouldnā€™t have had a conversation about how great a guy Mr. Moolenaar was and just discussed the technical aspects of his lifeā€™s work. But, come on, thatā€™d not really be a human way of responding to somebodyā€™s death, right?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  If weā€™re going to have these sort of lightly rule breaking threads, then I donā€™t think it is necessary to ask the mods to adjudicate exactly whoā€™s technical enough to warrant one. Itā€™s a fuzzy spectrum anyway, we have tech people, tech policy people, STEM outreach people, tech YouTube influencers, celebrities that played beloved nerd characters.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • timeon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                > unless they're evidence of some interesting new phenomenon

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Maybe time will tell if it was actually OT.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • ziddoap

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:55 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    >Maybe time will tell if it was actually OT.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    When that time comes, if it comes, then you'd be within the guidelines to post it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Preemptively posting it just in case it later becomes some new phenomenon is not ideal.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • cbeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:00 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Welcome Tom!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One thing I'd really like to see is less tactical flagging of content.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Hopefully with your additional help, people who suppress content they disagree with will be kept in check.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Open discourse is something that used to be sacrasanct in scientific and engineering circles. Over the last decade or so, free speech has been on the decline, and discussion is now very polarised along political lines.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      For example, it's nearly impossible to discuss technical progress made by Elon Musk's companies without brigading by leftwing commenters, and I've seen positive news about Musk and his companies get quickly flagged and squirreled away. This is self-serving behaviour by bad actors and should be addressed in order that HN is a politically-neutral forum for discussion, and not a leftwing echo chamber.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • tomhow

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 9:03 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I understand, and lament, that the world is so polarised these days. There's a limit to what we in this little corner of the web can do to correct such powerful global macro trends, but we'll continue to try our best.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          If you see things that are unfairly flagged, you can email us and we'll look at them. As long as comments/submissions are within the guidelines, we'll restore them.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          We want HN to be a place where people can discuss contentious topics. This is a major reason why I've moved into an expanded role here. I think HN has been, and can continue to be, one of the better places on the internet for discussing contentious topics.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          The thing to remember is the guiding principle of HN is curiosity. This place is not meant to be for ideological battle, or for trying to win arguments. It's for conversations where we can learn from each other about things we're curious about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I've always liked to learn about the opposing side of whatever position I hold. That's why I've found HN to be so valuable, and I want it to be a place people to come to for that reason for many years into the future.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • dredmorbius

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 10:46 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              How effective are vouches in this regard?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'll do that reasonably frequently on both posts and comments, though I'm not sure how effective that is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              One sec, let's look at the endpoint ... First page (30 entries) for each shows, at this writing:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              - 13 dead of 30 vouched, submissions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              - 26 dead of 30 vouched, comments.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              The endpoints for the uninitiated:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Posts:  https://news.ycombinator.com/vouched?id=YOUR_USERNAME_HERE
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Comments:  https://news.ycombinator.com/vouched?id=YOUR_USERNAME_HERE&kind=comment
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I'll also admit that at times that's a protest vote against mod interactions as well.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              (The URLs are only visible to the owner of the UID, and I presume, moderators as well.)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • mindcrime

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:09 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Flags are issued by regular users like us though. What do you expect a moderator to do, except maybe manually intervene to "un dead" something if it seems like a case of overly biased flagging? That's assuming mods have the ability to do that (I've always assumed that they do).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • cbeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:16 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Flagging content should be a privilege that comes at a certain level of trust, and the privilege should be revoked by moderators for people that use flags to further an agenda.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Trust in forum users can be measured by various metrics - The Discourse forum software is a good example of how to do this: https://blog.discourse.org/2018/06/understanding-discourse-t...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • philipkglass

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 6:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    People do get their flagging powers revoked for misuse. There was a time when I went on an overly aggressive flagging spree and my flags no longer had any effect. Months later I sent an email to hn@ycombinator.com to pledge more judicious use of flagging and to request the restoration of that power. I got it back then.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Etheryte

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:24 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      How do you know that people use flags to further an agenda? I for one both downvote and flag pretty often, but it's largely because I don't like the tone of the discourse, not because of some overarching ploy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • ryandrake

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:20 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Since it's such a powerful action, it would be nice if flaggers had to at least justify the flag. Is it breaking a site rule? Is it spam? Is it not the original source? Does it actually violate the rules, or are you just using "Flag" as a mega-downvote for articles you don't personally like?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Yeah, that's the 'receipts for everything' idea and if you think it through, you'll realize it's at a minimum impractical and more likely just an outright bad idea. Where are these 'reasons' going to go? Who is going to read them or act on them? It sort of wants to stick it to those bad flaggers and misinformed downvoters or whatever but think about it applied to you. Do you not recoil at being asked by some random web app to justify your actions? Like, we're ostensibly here for conversation not to fill out TPS report cover sheets.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            This is 'drink verification can' but for messageboards.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • tptacek

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:54 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A lot of HN mechanism makes more sense if you can accept the idea that the goal is to promote good threads, and not, as so many people believe, to promote one set of opinions over another. Requiring justification for flags would immediately crud up threads with meta-debates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                A hard thing for people to accept, something that I think is an unstated part of the HN ethos but nevertheless real, is that it's almost always better to have no thread at all than a shitty one. Important topics will inevitably get an airing in one thread or another.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • dredmorbius

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    yesterday at 10:51 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I've taken to linking to moderator admonishments (mostly dang, occasionally pg or sctb) where I think it might be helpful, e.g.:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    <https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43478913>

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This is not for every flag, by a long shot, and occurs (checking my history) perhaps a few times a month.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Note that the follow-up to the above link also earned another dang cite. Few justifications are original...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    The practice seems ... not too disruptive, and at least modestly effective. It also gives me a track record of who's turned up before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Linking quips both keeps my own voice out of the discussion, and mutes the impact on the page itself.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • pvg

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 7:13 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Requiring justification for flags would immediately crud up threads with meta-debates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      That is true and I used to say it but the receipts people evade it with non-public receipts (which can maybe later somehow be audited). So I'm switching to dunking on the thing for its martinetism and pointless bureaucracy. It feels more self-indulgently righteous to boot!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • mschuster91

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 6:34 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Frankly, I'd also love to see this for downvotes.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • ryandrake

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 6:17 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      > I've seen positive news about Musk and his companies get quickly flagged and squirreled away.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Huh, I always thought it was the other way around. Anything negative about Musk also gets quickly flagged and buried. I guess we can agree that Musk is currently a lightning rod, and brigades on both sides are acting to hide (positive and negative) coverage of his actions.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • dmix

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        yesterday at 6:49 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Some valid threads will get flagged because the comment section will be extremely predictable flame wars and have nothing to do with the article. That's the nature of social media. People can't help themselves. There's plenty of other social media sites for that sort of sports team drumbeating, so not much is lost by flagging some news article off the frontpage.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • kubb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          yesterday at 6:36 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I hope people don't get punished for flagging Musk appreciation content. There's a lot that can be wrong with such submissions (cultism, uncritical praise, excessive volume, lack of substance, etc.).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • cbeach

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 8:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              > cultism, uncritical praise, excessive volume, lack of substance

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              All of which are subjective judgements on the content, which will naturally be reflective of a voter's political biases

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • kubb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 2:47 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You canā€™t eliminate subjective judgement, but cultism isnā€™t electoral politics, itā€™s about loving and adoring the guru, feeling great about how smart the guru is etc.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Vaslo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 10:32 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I will assist in reporting brigading leftist commenters. There are many of us that want to see politics out of commentary when unnecessary.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • toonch

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 12:21 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • BergAndCo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 2:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • aiauthoritydev

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              yesterday at 6:21 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • tombhowl

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 4:12 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • jgruber

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  yesterday at 8:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Iā€™ll bet this will fix HNā€™s transparency issues.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • today at 12:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • BergAndCo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 2:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • dang

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 4:22 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        You should supply links to whatever accounts you had that were banned, so readers can make up their own minds about what happened and how fair or unfair we were.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        When someone makes claims about how they were unfairly treated, but won't let people look at the actual situation, that's sort of a tell. If the mods had actually treated them so badly, you can be sure that it would be pointed to with neon hypertext.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • BergAndCo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 4:59 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Here are a few shadowbanned users I saw in a /single/ thread (who don't know they're shadowbanned as they prolifically comment away), whose comments are pretty normie-tier:

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=oldpersonintx https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=tomohawk https://news.ycombinator.com/threads?id=techright75

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            (There seems to be extreme bias or unfair flagging by users simply because "old Texan" and "techright" are "scary Conservative-sounding usernames", yet you pursue the innocents being reported rather than the botfarms mass-flagging?)

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's all very "Everyone Stalin's sending to the gulags is a criminal, though, so keep your nose down and mind your own business." God sees everything, you know.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • BergAndCo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 3:48 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              Right, so mods can claim it's my alt and ban me for ban evasion, while the buttkissers comb her history for anything too "techbro"-sounding to prove that she "had it coming". Not my first rodeo, Danny boy.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • jgord

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 2:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            upvoted.. not because I agree, but because dissent has to be tolerated in a civil society.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I would like to see more discussion on HN around topics that seem unpopular here, and are perhaps politically divisive .. such as : economic inequality, climate change, demographic crunch

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Somewhere between the prevailing economic malaise, cynicism and despair ... and tech-bro fan-boi greedy optimism : there might be a middle way where we can use the new technologies of AI to actually improve our lives and create wide wealth generation, and more prosperity for the middle class.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • MatthiasPortzel

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 3:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I am firm believer in the right to free speech and the importance of expressing ideas that are contrary to the general cultural attitude.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Thatā€™s why I turn on the Show Dead setting on HN, and I love that HN has that feature.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Save your upvotes for people positively contributing.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • BergAndCo

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 3:43 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Thanks for replying; I had positive karma, now I have negative karma and am lucky I'm not shadowbanned yet. Whether you agree with the comments that got this user shadowbanned, do you agree with shadowbanning this user for these comments? Because it was only for these comments and nothing else.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Teever

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            yesterday at 6:27 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I think it's great to see more moderation from non-Americans.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My biggest critique of this site is that the user base and moderation seems very biased with American perspectives to the detriment of the non-American user base and the quality of content as a whole.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • mkl

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                yesterday at 7:32 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                dang is Canadian.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • zerr

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 8:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    I.e. North American.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • Teever

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      yesterday at 10:39 PM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I say this as a Canadian -- So he's basically Canadian-lite culturally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I want to see more moderation from people around the world, with less geographic and cultural proximity to the Bay area.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • Teever

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 12:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Oops, I meant American-Lite.