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The US stops sharing air quality data from embassies worldwide

429 points - today at 12:53 AM

Source
  • defrost

    today at 2:33 AM

    Highlighted in earlier reports and included in this APNews brief:

      In some places, the U.S. air quality monitors propelled nations to start their own air quality research and raised awareness, Krishna said.
    
      In China, for example, data from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing famously contradicted official government reports, showing worse pollution levels than authorities acknowledged. It led to China improving air quality.
    
    ( earlier: https://phys.org/news/2025-03-embassies-pollution-popular-ch... + https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43265021 )

      The United States since 2008 has monitored air quality through embassies—as a service to Americans overseas but also, increasingly, as a way to share accurate scientific data that may otherwise be censored overseas.
    
      In China, authorities in 2014 banned a popular app from sharing data from the US embassy ahead of a major international summit attended by then president Barack Obama.
    
      But researchers say that the transparency has had a noticeable effect, with China taking action after being embarrassed by US embassy data released on social media that showed far worse pollution than official figures.
    
      Obama's ambassador to China, Gary Locke, faced scorn in state media after he presided over the introduction of monitors at the embassy and consulates that tracked the so-called PM 2.5 particulate matter carried in the thick blankets of smog pervading China's capital.
    
      The air quality data from the US embassy is also frequently used as a reference in New Delhi, which has severe pollution issues.
    
    This is a low cost to gather and deliver data stream that has a profound effect on global air quality and improving health and well being for all.

      • martin_a

        today at 7:29 AM

        > improving health and well being for all

        Yeah, to me it looks like that is not fine under the new administration. If it would help only Americans, or those in power at least, it would be okay, but something for all the humans? Naaah...

          • saagarjha

            today at 9:03 AM

            Wait until they stop sharing air quality data in the US too.

            • yapyap

              today at 7:43 AM

              Or, or they don’t want to go against countries like China anymore

                • lukan

                  today at 8:09 AM

                  You mean they don't want to embarass other dictatorships anymore, by sharing even simple things such as actual air quality data?

                  In my understanding it is not an attack on the country of china, to show their population a glimpse of truth.

                  It is maybe a slight attack on their government. But governments are not the same as the country, even though governments tend to disagree.

                    • diggan

                      today at 8:46 AM

                      > In my understanding it is not an attack on the country of china, to show their population a glimpse of truth.

                      When one country wants to give the population of another "a glimpse of truth", no matter how well meaning, it's usually seen as a threat to the nations sovereignty, for better or worse.

                      As it stands right now, the US are no longer interested in either being in opposition to warmongering countries (Russia) nor stand up against countries it sees as oppressive to it's own population (China), it's clearly heading down a road of self-isolation which makes sense when you consider the ultimate goal of the current regime.

                        • lukan

                          today at 9:17 AM

                          The sovereignity to lie to the own population?

                          I don't think, that is a universal shared concept.

                          I mean we are talking about air quality sensor data here. Not analyzing and judging the countries politics.

                          • notahacker

                            today at 9:12 AM

                            I think even that gives too much credit. Trump loves being antagonistic towards China (even though with the big picture of how much damage he's doing to global perceptions of technology, the reliability of the US as a trading partner and Western alliances they really don't mind) and actively threatening the national sovereignty of random smaller countries that won't respond. But air quality is the sort of thing than libs care about, so from the point of view of his administration this woke nonsense must be stopped

                              • Nevermark

                                today at 9:22 AM

                                His power comes from managed appearances, bought with the destructive catharsis that seem to sooth many frustrated people. Even his followers recognize that, but still respect him for pulling it off. “For them.”

                                So yeah, there isn’t going to be a coherent plan behind this, other than adding chapters to the story he spins.

                                About who’s to blame for people’s frustrations, and he is the answer. Who is for him vs. who is the “enemy”. What helps him vs. what is “waste”.

            • ukoki

              today at 7:16 AM

              I remember living in Beijing when the US Embassary Air Quality Twitter account tweeted "Error: value above measurable range" (paraphrasing) -- that was a fun day.

                • tellarin

                  today at 7:46 AM

                  That really made China move. Both in blocking some social media and taking more action to improve air quality.

                    • cloudbonsai

                      today at 9:16 AM

                      I like the take of System science people on this matter -- they say that air/water quality monitoring works because "it introduces a feedback loop in the system".

                      Here is a relevant anecodote from Donella Meadows (an ecology professor at Dirtmouth; She was a major proponent of environemental quality watches):

                        During the oil embargo and energy crisis of the early 1970s, the Dutch began to pay close attention to their energy use. It was discovered that some of the houses in this subdivision used one-third less electricity than the other houses. No one could explain this. All houses were charged the same price for electricity, all contained similar families.
                      
                        The difference, it turned out, was in the position of the electric meter. The families with high electricity use were the ones with the meter in the basement, where people rarely saw it. The ones with low use had the meter in the front hall where people passed, the little wheel turning around, adding up the monthly electricity bill many times a day.
                      
                      Adding a quick, tight feedback loop is often the most effective way to change the behavior of goverments (and people).

              • insane_dreamer

                today at 5:32 AM

                We were living in Beijing when that happened, and you cannot underestimate the impact that it had. It ultimately forced the Chinese government to publish the actual air quality data which in turn forced it to take significant action to improve air quality in Beijing.

                  • seanmcdirmid

                    today at 6:44 AM

                    Same. One thing I remember was that Twitter (where the data was reported) got blocked at about the same time. 2010 was a bit nuts. The government tried to explain it away that the area near liangmaqiao was especially bad for Beijing, which was hilarious.

                    It didn’t actually get that much better when we left in August 2016, but I hear it is much better today. Also, anyone can buy an AQI sensor of Amazon these days for $90, so it’s difficult to keep AQI readings under wraps

                    • andsoitis

                      today at 5:49 AM

                      Do you think Beijing will stop publishing actual and correct air quality data now?

                        • yard2010

                          today at 6:02 AM

                          If there is no other source of truth it's easier for the government to change the data rather than the actual air quality.

                          • maxglute

                            today at 6:34 AM

                            Everyone and their dog has air purifiers that measure AQI and PM2.5 in Chinese cities now.

                            • tellarin

                              today at 7:50 AM

                              They already do, in a sense. The scale used here is different from the internationally used and the categories imply lesser health effects.

                      • thaumasiotes

                        today at 2:38 AM

                        > In China, for example, data from the U.S. Embassy in Beijing famously contradicted official government reports, showing worse pollution levels than authorities acknowledged. It led to China improving air quality.

                        That program, by the way, simultaneously managed to antagonize the Chinese government while being incredibly popular with the Chinese people.

                        It's not something I would expect a US administration hostile to China to cut.

                          • kelnos

                            today at 3:48 AM

                            > It's not something I would expect a US administration hostile to China to cut.

                            I think in this case it's just a result of the haphazard approach to all of these cuts where nothing has actually been analyzed and planned. They are cutting things without thinking about repercussions, and of course their knee-jerk response to air-quality measurement is "it has to do with the climate and climate change, so we must suppress it".

                            Or it's even more "innocent" than that: they were given a target dollar amount or percentage to cut, and they're scrambling to find ways to get there, without really thinking things through.

                              • bad_user

                                today at 7:33 AM

                                Judging how the US administration has turned against its historic allies, while pandering to authoritarian regimes, I'm pretty sure that it's by design, not reckless.

                                  • scott_w

                                    today at 8:12 AM

                                    It’s likely a bit of both in this case: they probably equate air quality to “green, woke stuff,” and so want it gone. The reckless part comes from the decision maker not looking into this and seeing the benefit for Americans in any detail. And by not seeing a difference between air quality and climate change.

                                      • diggan

                                        today at 8:48 AM

                                        > And by not seeing a difference between air quality and climate change

                                        Both of them would increase quality of life if we cared just a little bit about them, so I think in their eyes they're more or less the same? They seem hellbent on decreasing the quality of life as far as I can tell, even being outspoken about that "things will get worse before it gets better", so if you try to empathize with their perspective, it does make sense they see them as the same thing more or less.

                                • varelse

                                  today at 8:46 AM

                                  [dead]

                                  • BobbyJo

                                    today at 5:42 AM

                                    I honestly don't see how you can cut government spending at this point without being haphazard. Every administration for the last 70+ years has increased real spending (not to mention expanding executive power along the way, which got us here).

                                      • JumpCrisscross

                                        today at 6:37 AM

                                        > Every administration for the last 70+ years has increased real spending

                                        This is the logic a Victorian surgeon hacking at a patient, safe in the knowledge that sea sponges do alright with a fraction of a human’s organs.

                                        70 years ago we were reeling from WWII. We were entering the Cold War with fragile new alliances and only had a middle class because of massive government spending. Our real GDP was 10x smaller, our population half as numerous. What we are doing today is recreating the conditions of the Great Depression because our public education apparently can’t teach history. There is waste and fraud abundant. But not where Musk is looking. DOGE itself would be near the top of the list.

                                        • danparsonson

                                          today at 6:20 AM

                                          Why does that necessitate a haphazard approach? It's surely still possible to make a detailed assessment and prioritise properly?

                                          • surgical_fire

                                            today at 8:27 AM

                                            Don't worry, government spending will increase anyway. Maybe you just won't have accurate data about it anymore.

                                            • theshrike79

                                              today at 7:00 AM

                                              Step 1 of cutting spending: get people who know about it to investigate, not randoms from Silicon Valley

                                              Step 2: don't speed run it in 4 weeks, give it time and do it properly. You know, scientifically. Adjust, measure, adjust again.

                                              • thaumasiotes

                                                today at 6:22 AM

                                                Well, a more normal approach would be to tell various administrators that they're getting a lot less funding and let them figure out what they want to cut. There are some obstacles to doing that with the government, but if you could make it stick it's better in every fundamental way.

                                                Whether that would preserve the Chinese air quality program is open to question. It's an extremely cost-effective way to look good (in front of most of the world, but especially in front of China) while making the CCP look bad. But while that may be a goal that the administration supports, it also isn't a goal that lends itself to a lot of hard objective metrics, which makes choosing to keep it a risk in some ways.

                                                • watwut

                                                  today at 6:20 AM

                                                  Increases in spending do not imply impossibilitynto think about cuts. That is not how it works.

                                                  The not think part is a deliberate choice as described in project 2025 - to cause fear and chaos.

                                          • jandrewrogers

                                            today at 3:55 AM

                                            Almost all global sensing data published by the US receives a lot of negative pushback from other countries around the world. I don’t think most people are aware of this.

                                            The reasons are myriad. It makes it harder for other governments to control narratives in their own countries. It undermines efforts of governments to develop their own capacity; the US gives it away for free but those countries are not the customer and it does not serve them per se. It sets a much higher bar for domestic implementation than they have the capacity to implement. There is a sense the US exploits this data for their own ends. It doesn’t just irritate China, it irritates everyone.

                                            Making the issue more political, the US edits and censors the data it publishes for its own purposes. This isn’t a secret but it taints the perception of US neutrality when making this data available.

                                            The geopolitics and realpolitik of international sensing data is not clean.

                                              • wqaatwt

                                                today at 9:08 AM

                                                So pointing out that the sky is blue when it is indeed blue would be a form of propaganda as well?

                                                > It undermines efforts of governments to develop their own capacity

                                                If the government is so intent of concealing the problem that it is falsifying basic measurements then surely those efforts are not worth much?

                                                We’re not talking about information that is in any way subjective, relative or biased.

                                                it’s like a government trying to pretend that climate changes isn’t happening by getting pissed at other countries that have accurate thermometers in their embassies..

                                                • achempion

                                                  today at 7:13 AM

                                                  What is political in sharing scientific measurements? Can you point to a specific person who is irritated by it? Why it irritates you personally?

                                                    • dredmorbius

                                                      today at 9:04 AM

                                                      The comment you're responding to literally spells out the reasons.

                                                      Literally literally, not figuratively literally.

                                                      • jandrewrogers

                                                        today at 8:32 AM

                                                        If you collect novel domestic sensing data and share it with the world, that is exploitable as intelligence against your country. If another country gives you their domestic sensing data, it may be manipulated to effect some other national objective. These are not idle concerns because both have been done many times by many countries. It is a dual use technology. There is a lot of paranoia around the sharing of sensing data sets between countries because much of it is easy to abuse.

                                                        It is a “default deny” environment. The majority of international data sharing deals I’ve seen, and I’ve seen quite a few, never happen because they can’t get past what governments see as the political risks. The scientific mission barely even enters the discussion when it comes to getting sign-off from governments. When they do give their approval, it often comes with conditions that impede the scientific mission. I’ve also seen data sharing denied for unrelated petty geopolitical reasons between governments quite a lot.

                                                        It is less obvious in the US because so much sensing data resides there; there is still a lot of scientific sensing data in other countries that would be useful in the US if you could get it. Outside the US people feel it more acutely because of the relative paucity of available domestic data.

                                                        I’m not making an endorsement of any type, I’m just saying this is how it works internationally in my experience. You may have simple scientific missions but the approvals come from people that have a different agenda. It is a pain in the ass and really demotivating if you need that data for your research.

                                                        • briandear

                                                          today at 8:51 AM

                                                          China lost their minds over it. It’s very sensitive politically because it undermines the official narrative.

                                                          • matwood

                                                            today at 8:27 AM

                                                            I mean, Trump said on covid, 'if we stop testing, we'd have fewer cases'. People who deal in a steady stream of lies don't want the inconvenience of facts like scientific measurements. Same reason all the climate data is being removed.

                                                        • watwut

                                                          today at 6:22 AM

                                                          Current USA leadership is not concerned with negative pushback from abroad.

                                                            • happosai

                                                              today at 9:23 AM

                                                              Not concerned about negative feedback from democratic countries that take care of their citizens.

                                                              However USA leadership seem very concerned about keeping happy face when talking to dictators. That tweet by Elon saying "this is what competent leadership looks like - of picture of Sergei "novichock" Lavrov and Mohammed "bonesaw" bin Salman.

                                                              Or how T could not say Putin is a dictator. Or anything bad about him at all. Never mind under Putin that country has no freedom of speech of or freedom of economy.

                                                          • NooneAtAll3

                                                            today at 4:09 AM

                                                            I wonder what data on the US by others is there

                                                              • jandrewrogers

                                                                today at 4:49 AM

                                                                Some but a lot less than you might think. The US invests a lot in global sensing, in some cases operating redundant independent networks while many countries don’t even have domestic sensing. This is a consistent complaint of non-US scientists that work with sensing data; it is difficult to get their governments to invest in domestic sensor networks when the US kind of does it for you, so even many developed countries have limited domestic data. In Europe in particular, there are additional privacy concerns that stymie more creative approaches at aggregating these types of measurements by other means.

                                                                When one of these countries does build out a domestic sensor network, they are often unwilling to share the data because it is seen as advantaging the Americans. Resistance to data sharing is quite high, for many reasons, so if you need to do anything that spans many countries you often end up falling back on whatever the Americans can give you.

                                                                The geopolitics around data sharing has been a significant hindrance to scientific activities like trying to build accurate and detailed climate and environmental models. Natural processes don’t recognize national borders.

                                                                The only global sensor networks operated by several countries independently are related to weather, and even then there are fewer than people probably imagine.

                                                            • JamisonM

                                                              today at 4:52 AM

                                                              > Making the issue more political, the US edits and censors the data it publishes for its own purposes. This isn’t a secret but it taints the perception of US neutrality when making this data available.

                                                              First I have heard of this, what's the source for the US editing & censoring global sensing data?

                                                                • jandrewrogers

                                                                  today at 5:28 AM

                                                                  They remove things not germane to the purpose of the data they publish. For example, USGS seismic data is noticeably bereft of most seismic events that are not geological in nature or sometimes related to mining (though in some sources they often scrub the mining ones too). Events of military interest like weapons tests, some target getting blown up in the middle of nowhere that may never make the news, etc is removed.

                                                                  There are a ton of artifacts that show up in other sensing systems that are indicative of interesting or sensitive things that are outside the scope of their purpose, and these too may be edited from the data.

                                                                  The people deciding what constitutes an event that should be scrubbed is pretty opaque AFAIK. It is official policy and sensing companies that do a lot of work with the government seem to follow similar guidelines.

                                                                  Due to the proliferation of crowd sourced and alternative sensing platforms, I would argue that this is increasingly an exercise in futility. Nonetheless people still view many of the US sensing data sources as authoritative for all practical purposes. There are countries with laws dictating that some alternative data they control must be treated as authoritative for all purposes for their country, but that US data is sitting out there.

                                                                    • Arainach

                                                                      today at 8:24 AM

                                                                      That's a lot of words but still no source.

                                                                  • defrost

                                                                    today at 5:00 AM

                                                                    That raised my eyebrow also.

                                                                    In the past I've heard similar statements and had people point at 'cooked' raw data as evidence of editing.

                                                                    'Cooked" generally means raw data with warts removed, the raw data is still available, the cooked data is what's on offer as the primary data of record - typically it may have had sensor errors and saturated bursts removed, undergone light smoothing filtering, and perhaps been geolocated to earth coords rather than retaining raw instrument attitudes, etc.

                                                                    'Censoring' can mean 'no longer linked on public webpages for easy downloading' - generally the raw and cooked data is still on servers and accessable by direct FTP.

                                                                    I'd be interested to know what specifically the GP actually meant by that throwaway assertion.

                                                                • keybored

                                                                  today at 4:33 AM

                                                                  > Making the issue more political, the US edits and censors the data it publishes for its own purposes. This isn’t a secret but it taints the perception of US neutrality when making this data available.

                                                                  Less doublespeak version: The US edits and censors the data it publishes for its own purposes. Thus the data is not viewed as neutral.

                                                                  The neutrality of some entity is not set by default by God and then “tainted” by their very own actions. The neutrality or lack thereof can be reasoned about directly.

                                                                    • jandrewrogers

                                                                      today at 5:03 AM

                                                                      The irony is that the US isn’t actively encouraging other countries to use this data, quite the opposite. But if it is public to anyone it is public to everyone. Countries became accustomed to freeloading on this data because they didn’t have their own, even though it wasn’t for them or designed to be fit for their purposes. The intended purpose of the data may not be the same purpose that other countries are trying to use it for.

                                                                      The censoring and editing often isn’t nefarious, it is a useful data cleaning exercise that reflects why the data was collected. If they simply published the raw feed then they would be doing a disservice to their actual customers.

                                                              • consumer451

                                                                today at 7:16 AM

                                                                > a US administration hostile to China...

                                                                Based on actions alone, what is the evidence for this?

                                                                  • scott_w

                                                                    today at 8:46 AM

                                                                    The extra tariffs being put on Chinese goods?

                                                                    • ZeroGravitas

                                                                      today at 7:42 AM

                                                                      This belief has got to be the biggest propaganda victory for the Trump administrations.

                                                                      It was noticeable in the first term how weak he was on this topic, but apparently losing a nonsensical trade war to them and saying mildly racist things at rallies made him tough on them? More stupidly, did he just say he was tough on China enough that people believed him?

                                                                      Now that he's losing nonsensical trade wars with US allies and giving the green light to seizing territory from neighbouring countries it just highlights in neon how good he was and is for China, but it's silence (at best!) from the media.

                                                                        • matwood

                                                                          today at 8:32 AM

                                                                          Add in Trump implementing isolationist policies that only help China by allowing them to fill those gaps left by the US. Then there's Musk who Tweets nonsense 24/7, but somehow never says a bad word about China. Propaganda victory indeed.

                                                                  • yapyap

                                                                    today at 7:44 AM

                                                                    Is this administration really hostile to China though or just for show

                                                                    • paulddraper

                                                                      today at 6:53 AM

                                                                      They weren’t targeting China.

                                                                      • EGreg

                                                                        today at 2:49 AM

                                                                        Would you expect them to cut the IRS, if they're trying to cut deficits?

                                                                        Obama and Clinton (with Republican congresses) ACTUALLY cut deficits -- Clinton even got a surplus. Bush and Trump extended tax cuts which ballooned them back into trillions (also the trillion-dollar wars). A few quotes:

                                                                        Cheney 2004 about deficits: "Reagan proved deficits don't matter"

                                                                        Trump 2017 about deficits: "Yeah, but I won't be here"

                                                                        Clinton: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AX3a-2yrQwY

                                                                        Andrew Samwick, Bush's chief economist: You are smart people. You know that the tax cuts have not fueled record revenues. You know what it takes to establish causality. You know that the first order effect of cutting taxes is to lower tax revenues. We all agree that the ultimate reduction in tax revenues can be less than this first order effect, because lower tax rates encourage greater economic activity and thus expand the tax base. No thoughtful person believes that this possible offset more than compensated for the first effect for these tax cuts. Not a single one.

                                                                        And the Republicans have just done it again! Tax cuts for the ultra-wealthy.

                                                                          • jordanb

                                                                            today at 3:16 AM

                                                                            I kinda feel like you're not being charitable with the OP

                                                                            My read is that the OP is saying that the air quality monitors in China were a massive soft-power win for the US, and it also shamed the Chinese government. So if you start from the assumption that this current administration sees the Chinese government as a rival who should be opposed, then this kind of effort that bypasses the Chinese government and provides a resource to the Chinese people should be supported.

                                                                            If the administration claims to see China as a rival, but then cuts such an obviously beneficial project, reasonably, you gotta wonder if the administration is telling the truth about it's relationship with the Chinese government.

                                                                              • llm_nerd

                                                                                today at 3:48 AM

                                                                                Their argument seems to be that the current administration is playing checkers with tennis rackets on trampolines. Nothing makes sense or actually serves any goals, and are just random child-like stomping and smashing.

                                                                                In this case someone probably saw this as somehow related to "the environment" so it's bad.

                                                                                  • ikr678

                                                                                    today at 4:59 AM

                                                                                    I think it's more, any free service provided by the government shouldn't exist on principle (because this is a potential market opportunity for someone else).

                                                                                    That it had environment in the title is just extra bonus.

                                                                                      • lodovic

                                                                                        today at 9:02 AM

                                                                                        Domestically, that is correct, you are taking away an opportunity in the market. But in a foreign embassy there are no such competitors. And controlling air pollution is typically a job for the government.

                                                                            • AnthonyMouse

                                                                              today at 5:49 AM

                                                                              > We all agree that the ultimate reduction in tax revenues can be less than this first order effect, because lower tax rates encourage greater economic activity and thus expand the tax base. No thoughtful person believes that this possible offset more than compensated for the first effect for these tax cuts. Not a single one.

                                                                              This is kind of an embarrassing mistake for an economist.

                                                                              The theory that lower taxes can increase tax revenues is that they increase the rate of GDP growth. For example, with a lower tax rate, GDP might grow at 8%/year instead of 4%/year. Under different circumstances the difference might be larger or smaller, but as long as the lower tax rate improves GDP growth at all, compounding will eventually cause it to yield higher tax revenue at the lower rate. 20% of 1.08^15 is more than 35% of 1.04^15, and 20% of 1.08^50 is more than 370% of 35% of 1.04^50.

                                                                              This doesn't have to be an instantaneous effect for it to be real.

                                                                                • frikskit

                                                                                  today at 6:04 AM

                                                                                  Redo your analysis with something less absurd than 8%. For example 4.5% and you see no improvement in 100 years. 5% growth and it takes 59 years.

                                                                                  Historically major tax cuts in the US increased GDP growth by -1 to 1.5%.

                                                                                  You bring up a good point but in all realistic scenarios it actually misleads.

                                                                                    • AnthonyMouse

                                                                                      today at 6:24 AM

                                                                                      The actual numbers depend on the state of the economy, but you can't just lower the one without considering the others.

                                                                                      Historically "major tax cuts" were actually very small:

                                                                                      https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/FYFRGDA188S

                                                                                      These were tax cuts on the order of 1-3% of GDP, so of course the effect on GDP growth was similarly muted.

                                                                                      Meanwhile the baseline level of recent US GDP growth isn't 4%, it's more like 2.5%, making a 0.5% increase much more significant for such a small tax cut, so it's not absurd that a hypothetical doubling of the growth rate could result from a hypothetical 15% of GDP reduction in taxes. The hypothetical was just using larger numbers on multiple dimensions.

                                                                                      You get a similar payback period if you use smaller numbers all around, e.g. a reduction in the overall tax rate from 23% to 21.5% resulting in an increase in the GDP growth rate from 2.5% to 3%.

                                                                                      Moreover, the exact rate is difficult to calculate given limited data (and depends on changing factors in the economy), but the point is the existence of the effect. And it's not obvious that even quite long payback periods wouldn't be worth it, since the lower tax rate and the higher growth rate could then be sustained thereafter indefinitely.

                                                                                  • rstuart4133

                                                                                    today at 6:49 AM

                                                                                    > This doesn't have to be an instantaneous effect for it to be real.

                                                                                    For the effect to be real business has generate more growth with the money than the government spending the money does.

                                                                                    In most cases private enterprise clearly is more efficient that the government in the long term. In other cases, like health, it's clear from the USA example that government can supply better services for cheaper, freeing resources to further fuel to capitalist engine. This is probably true for other stuff we traditionally get our governments to manage like roads, k12 education, and local power and water distribution. If you can lower taxes so much private enterprise takes these functions over, the end result would be the same as you see for USA health - GDP goes backwards rather than forwards.

                                                                                    Then there is this reality: most of these tax reductions have been funded by government borrowing. The businesses could have borrowed those funds on the market. The net outcome is you are not reducing the level of government influence on the economy, you're just re-arranging the deck chairs, and doing so in a way that favours the business owners who now effectively get the funds interest free, with citizens (who are also their employees) paying it instead.

                                                                                    Given that the House Republicans unveiled blueprint to extend $4.5 trillion in tax cuts and lift the debt ceiling and that their current major backers are these super rich business owners, it's hard not to be a little cynical.

                                                                                    [0] https://apnews.com/article/house-republicans-budget-blueprin...

                                                                                      • AnthonyMouse

                                                                                        today at 7:55 AM

                                                                                        > For the effect to be real business has generate more growth with the money than the government spending the money does.

                                                                                        That is correct but it was also taken as a premise in the original claim and seems fairly plausible in general. In particular, government services would expect to have diminishing returns, so there are some threshold level which are worth the candle but as you exhaust the low-hanging fruit, further spending yields less public benefit than for the taxpayers to keep the rest of their money.

                                                                                        > In other cases, like health, it's clear from the USA example that government can supply better services for cheaper, freeing resources to further fuel to capitalist engine.

                                                                                        This isn't really the best example. The US healthcare system is highly dysfunctional in terms of costs, but basically all other countries have significantly lower costs regardless of whether their system is public or private, so that doesn't appear to be the distinguishing factor causing the dysfunction in the US.

                                                                                        But there are things governments could be better suited for, e.g. because they involve pricing major externalities or large fixed investments with a diffuse public benefit. Hardly anybody is suggesting that there shouldn't be one. The question is, are there things the government is currently doing that aren't worth the candle? Because the cost of that compounds over time.

                                                                                        > Then there is this reality: most of these tax reductions have been funded by government borrowing. The businesses could have borrowed those funds on the market.

                                                                                        This is actually an interesting question of a similar nature, because the government will generally be paying a lower interest rate than the corporate bond rate, and causing the economy to pay less interest to capital on borrowed money is probably an advantage.

                                                                                        In theory the interest could then be paid from the increased revenues resulting from a stronger economy, but whether this is worth it depends on the interest rate, which gets a lot more expensive when it isn't zero anymore.

                                                                                        > doing so in a way that favours the business owners who now effectively get the funds interest free, with citizens (who are also their employees) paying it instead.

                                                                                        The implication here is that the businesses would be the ones to receive the cuts but taxes would then be increased on the employees to pay the interest. There are other things that could be done than that.

                                                                                        > Given that the House Republicans unveiled blueprint to extend $4.5 trillion in tax cuts and lift the debt ceiling and that their current major backers are these super rich business owners, it's hard not to be a little cynical.

                                                                                        The cynicism is often warranted but there is also a lot of partisanship in the complaints. Saying "$4.5 trillion" is an obvious one; that's the sum total over a period of years rather than the difference in the annual budget and includes a lot of money that goes to W-2 employees rather than billionaires.

                                                                                        Meanwhile if you actually want super rich business owners to have less money the biggest thing you can do isn't related to top tax rates (which they generally find ways to avoid regardless), it's to increase the competitiveness of the markets in which they're extracting all of that lucre. It's better to make them give the money to the consumer as lower prices than try to hope the government can both take it from them and then not have it get lost in the pockets of some government official's cronies. But neither of the parties has historically been good at that, which is why we're in a bit of a mess.

                                                                                          • KoolKat23

                                                                                            today at 9:09 AM

                                                                                            Take a step back, perhaps there's inefficiency but their current actions are blunt cuts despite selling the efficiency brand.

                                                                                            This does nothing but decrease GDP.

                                                                                            GDP = C+I+G+(X-Z).

                                                                                            Being generous they're trying to increase investment (C) whilst decreasing government spend (G). There's zero guarantee the tax cut will be spent on C and as it concentrates it gets less efficient too anyway. Monopoly doesn't need to invest.

                                                                            • maxglute

                                                                              today at 7:16 AM

                                                                              There's no point anymore since everyone has AQI & PM2.5 meters.

                                                                              Incredibly popular is questionable, definitely among tier1 libtards in embassy and consulate cities on twitter at the time. There was just as much nationalist on renren then weibo who thought this was US interference.

                                                                              >> It led to China improving air quality.

                                                                              This is charitably western propaganda trying to take credit by fabricating notion that muh free speech can push CCP to change. Reality is BJ recognized pollution issue and had renewable policy underway a few years before this i.e. moving extra polluting factories out, controlling construction dust, vehicle registration systems, better emission standards etc. There was going to be coordinated effort to bring AQI down to <100s during 2008 Olympics and try to make it stick after, US Embassy was trying to stir shit leading up. Like if US embassy AQI shitposts was actually significant in pushing PRC enviromental policies, it would be an incredible own goal that pushed PRC to dominate renewable production chains and EVs while bankrupting western incumbants.

                                                                          • yard2010

                                                                            today at 6:00 AM

                                                                            So, it's just enshitification. The failing-up kind. Enshitification ensues.

                                                                              • bolognafairy

                                                                                today at 6:12 AM

                                                                                No. Can we please not look for places to call enshitification with such desperation that the word looses all meaning?

                                                                                  • altacc

                                                                                    today at 7:31 AM

                                                                                    They've enshitified enshitification ;)

                                                                            • mytailorisrich

                                                                              today at 6:48 AM

                                                                              This is still mission creep even if it is a low cost. In fact this often how focus is lost and costs accumulate...

                                                                              It is not embassies' role to provide this service. It is quite reasonable to stop.

                                                                              Of course people will argue that it was perhaps useful to the people of Beijing, New Delhi, etc. but the real question is what does this have to do with US embassies and the US government?

                                                                                • mrweasel

                                                                                  today at 7:34 AM

                                                                                  > It is not embassies' role to provide this service

                                                                                  It is the job of an embassy to provide it's nation with travel advise and recommendations. If the host nation cannot be trusted to provide accurate information about air pollution, then the embassies must do it.

                                                                                  I'd agree that it's not the embassies job to inform the citizens of host nation with the data, but that's practically free, once you are already distributing the info to you own people.

                                                                                  What I don't understand is, if it's that useful, could some other embassies not just do the work? The US normally have fairly well staffed embassies, not just some dude in a suit, but surely the WHO could locate appropriate embassies in almost any nation.

                                                                                    • scott_w

                                                                                      today at 8:55 AM

                                                                                      The WHO is going to struggle to do a lot of stuff with the USA pulling a lot of their funding…

                                                                                  • WhitneyLand

                                                                                    today at 7:09 AM

                                                                                    So do you also disagree with the premise of the government providing to this service, or only that it’s not the stated role of embassies to do it?

                                                                                    In deciding it’s quite reasonable to stop, is the thinking that “mission creep” = bad, so it justifies stopping something regardless of the big picture benefits? Or do you not consider the benefits significant?

                                                                                    Given a business with many departments, say you notice one department has some mission creep but somehow it’s also increasing profitability for the company overall.

                                                                                    What do you focus on - only mentioning stopping the department mission creep, or first mentioning people should make damn sure the value is preserved as they consider any reorganization?

                                                                                      • mytailorisrich

                                                                                        today at 7:19 AM

                                                                                        I do not know the benefits, if any.

                                                                                        But that's actually besides the point, which is mission and scope. It is not the job of the US government (or of any foreign governments) to provide air quality data in cities around the world and so I find it reasonable if they decide to stop. That's all.

                                                                                        I feel the reactions are much too strong and emotional, probably because many people here have been riled up by Trump and Musk so now overreact to anything they announce.

                                                                                • speakspokespok

                                                                                  today at 3:25 AM

                                                                                  Seattle has - once again - entered the chat.

                                                                                  Edit: Gary Locke is a former governor of Washington State and a member of of the old guard, a member of the pre-internet Seattle. This is back when South Lake Union (where Amazon is now) was just trees and low rent commercial. It was the site of the local Greyhound bus station.

                                                                                  He was the first Asian American governor in the US. While he's not directly Seattle, it was his primary constituency and he married a prominent Seattle TV news caster and former beauty queen.

                                                                                  Later, he was the first Asian American ambassador to China, appointed by Barack Obama. His political career ran 30 years and I've heard his name mentioned for most of my life. [0]

                                                                                  [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gary_Locke

                                                                                    • BugsJustFindMe

                                                                                      today at 4:41 AM

                                                                                      What does any of this have to do with anything?

                                                                                      • kelnos

                                                                                        today at 3:50 AM

                                                                                        For starters, don't complain about downvotes. It's boring and lazy.

                                                                                        But I think you're actually getting downvoted because your comment has no context. I have no idea what Seattle has to do with any of this; if you'd actually explained what Seattle is doing in this space, it would have been an informative, useful comment that could teach people something, and lead to more interesting discussion. But as-is, your comment is just a drive-by, low-effort nothing.

                                                                                          • today at 4:20 AM

                                                                                            • irjustin

                                                                                              today at 4:20 AM

                                                                                              I downvoted because it's exactly as you say.

                                                                                          • today at 4:36 AM

                                                                                            • eddythompson80

                                                                                              today at 5:47 AM

                                                                                              Not really sure what any of that has to do with anything. Seattle is second only to San Francisco in list of blue voting cities that have failed in addressing every single social problem over the last 25 years. Seattle political class and scene is one of the worst grifters in the country. They are just “blue” grifters, so we can’t criticize them despite their abysmal track record.

                                                                                      • adamiscool8

                                                                                        today at 1:56 AM

                                                                                        >The stop in sharing data was “due to funding constraints that have caused the Department to turn off the underlying network” read the statement, which added that embassies and consulates were directed to keep their monitors running and the sharing of data could resume in the future if funded was restored.

                                                                                        Hmm...

                                                                                        >The Washington Monument syndrome,[0] also known as the Mount Rushmore syndrome or the firemen first principle, is a term used to describe the phenomenon of government agencies in the United States cutting the most visible or appreciated service provided by the government when faced with budget cuts. It has been used in reference to cuts in popular services such as national parks and libraries or to valued public employees such as teachers and firefighters, with the Washington Monument and Mount Rushmore being two of the most visible landmarks maintained by the National Park Service. This is done to put pressure on the public and lawmakers to rescind budget cuts.

                                                                                        [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Washington_Monument_syndrome

                                                                                          • jordanb

                                                                                            today at 2:09 AM

                                                                                            Would make sense if it was the executive trying to get more money allocated out of Congress. In this case, the money is allocated but the executive is choosing not to spend it "for government efficiency."

                                                                                              • adamiscool8

                                                                                                today at 2:21 AM

                                                                                                Do you have a source for this? The article on says it's "due to funding constraints that have caused the Department to turn off the underlying network" but does not elaborate on the constraints. Given embassies clearly have latitude in funding their continued operations, I find it implausible the executive halted "air quality monitoring" and much more likely a disgruntled bureaucrat made a choice.

                                                                                                  • jordanb

                                                                                                    today at 2:35 AM

                                                                                                    Well, Congress hasn't passed a budget and the department is still working on previous year's budget. So either that money somehow ran out unexpectedly, or it's the work of Elon, Big Balls, and the gang.

                                                                                                      • adamiscool8

                                                                                                        today at 3:05 AM

                                                                                                        Or, the not-so-secret third option, a disgruntled State Dept bureaucrat made a choice.

                                                                                                          • JumpCrisscross

                                                                                                            today at 6:43 AM

                                                                                                            > the not-so-secret third option, a disgruntled State Dept bureaucrat made a choice

                                                                                                            If this happened in isolation, sure. We’re also firing random weapons stockpile experts, bird flu, customs agents (while raising tariffs? Bailout for smugglers?), IRS agents (while trying to cut fraud, mind you) and forest servicers (after record wildfires). Against that backdrop, chaotic shutdown has ample explanatory value.

                                                                                                            You need a lot of ketamine to see the patterns in this madness. Instead, let’s take it at face value: these are illegal acts of random mendaciousness designed to demoralise federal workers before the courts cut Musk off. Musk, not Trump, is taking the lead because he can weather a lot more heat and Trump’s main deliverable to Thiel and Andreessen is his tax cut.

                                                                                                              • matwood

                                                                                                                today at 8:40 AM

                                                                                                                Don't forget cutting NOAA right as hurricane season is kicking off.

                                                                                                                The IRS thing was particularly stupid. OMB has a report that said for every $1 put towards tax fraud enforcement they received some $4-$7 in return.

                                                                                                                  • defrost

                                                                                                                    today at 8:55 AM

                                                                                                                    Stupid is relative to PoV, from the Trump oligarchy gallery every $1 cut is some $8 of additional unchallenged "creative accounting".

                                                                                            • epistasis

                                                                                              today at 2:06 AM

                                                                                              I don't think your link is comparable. Air quality data is not a high profile valued thing.

                                                                                              But it does sound "woke" and outside of what an incompetent know-nothing would say that the State Department shouldn't touch.

                                                                                              The "funding constraint" is almost certainly trying to rid embassies of the wokeness of monitoring pollution.

                                                                                                • bandrami

                                                                                                  today at 8:05 AM

                                                                                                  It's definitely high profile in India and China. Delhi air quality was one problem that Modi originally ran on when he first became PM.

                                                                                                  • adamiscool8

                                                                                                    today at 2:18 AM

                                                                                                    >Air quality data is not a high profile valued thing.

                                                                                                    Disagree completely - saying "we had to turn off the air quality data network" is vague enough to be plausibly blamed on budget cuts for a non-tech-savvy audience, while still having a significant enough impact to attract coverage from outlets like the NYT. This, in turn, creates another "pro-science" talking point to rally "The Resistance".

                                                                                                      • epistasis

                                                                                                        today at 2:25 AM

                                                                                                        Maybe to you, but not to any of the Trump voters I know. And not to a lot of other people, either. This is in the State Department, not EPA, and embassies spending resources on pollution monitoring sounds like the very epitome of government waste that DOGE is trying to eliminate.

                                                                                                        It is not a "pro-science" talking point it is actually a real pro-science without the quotation marks talking point.

                                                                                                        Science has been completely under attack for every second this administration has been in power, in every single way, from funding to scientific indpendence to censoring of words that are politically incorrect to the Trump administration.

                                                                                                        Suggesting that this is an optional high profile shut down of science rather than something completely in line with what's happening every single day is a very odd take on the matter.

                                                                                                        And as to the proof that this is not something that people really care about in a high profile way, the science rallies get about 1/10th the support of other sorts of rallies in those trying to resist Trump's changes.

                                                                                                          • adamiscool8

                                                                                                            today at 2:38 AM

                                                                                                            Those most passionate about capital-S Science are often aggressively anti-Trump, making them prone to accepting reports like this uncritically.

                                                                                                            If the State Department spends a crazy sum maintaining the air quality app, questioning that expense is fair and pretending otherwise only undermines scientific credibility.

                                                                                                            This article is a "pro-science" talking point because it admits embassies were told to keep monitors running and data sharing could resume if funding returned.

                                                                                                            So at this point, there's not even necessarily a gap in the actual data. The only proof this shutdown was unavoidable comes from those who carried it out. Funny how that goes...

                                                                                                              • Braxton1980

                                                                                                                today at 3:04 AM

                                                                                                                >If the State Department spends a crazy sum maintaining the air quality app, questioning that expense is fair and pretending otherwise only undermines scientific credibility

                                                                                                                How does spending and the debate around what what is justified have anything to do with scientific credibility?

                                                                                                                • chipotle_coyote

                                                                                                                  today at 2:46 AM

                                                                                                                  Do you have a source that suggests the State Department spends a crazy sum maintaining the air quality app, or are you Just Asking Questions™? I mean, I've found those most passionate about capital-T Trump are often aggressively anti-science, making them prone to accepting transparently petty bullshit uncritically.

                                                                                                                  Not that I'm saying you're doing that, of course. Although it is weird you use the phrase "pro-science talking point" as if being pro-science was a bad thing. Do you think it's a bad thing? Just asking questions.

                                                                                                                    • adamiscool8

                                                                                                                      today at 3:00 AM

                                                                                                                      Well, the app itself cost at least $15M to develop [1], so I wouldn't be surprised at a crazy slushy maintenance contract for something that could run on a self-hosted Windmill instance. You aren't against freeing up more money for actual science are you?

                                                                                                                      [1] https://www.highergov.com/contract/EPD09097/

                                                                                                                        • epistasis

                                                                                                                          today at 3:10 AM

                                                                                                                          That is the grant for the EPA software, not the network of embassies for adding embassy data to the EPA program.

                                                                                                                          I'm not sure what maintenance you mean there, but it surely is reminiscent of "I could code Twitter in a weekend."

                                                                                                                            • adamiscool8

                                                                                                                              today at 3:42 AM

                                                                                                                              Yes, but the same contractor manages the AirNow Data Management Center [0], and according to this talk [0] DOSAir is the actual program here, and they are piggybacking the EPA AirNow data infrastructure, and per the OP they are keeping the sensors running.

                                                                                                                              So I'm all the more confused about what exactly necessitates this specific State Dept-directed funding freeze that happens to impact only the network that communicates the data from embassies into AirNow, but not the data center or other data producers.

                                                                                                                              [0] https://www.airnow.gov/sites/default/files/2020-11/hylton-st...

                                                                                                                              [1] https://youtu.be/RcdBIWdA-e4?si=PTpOEG7rFnGod7EH&t=2615

                                                                                                                  • today at 3:59 AM

                                                                                                            • lurk2

                                                                                                              today at 2:50 AM

                                                                                                              The people relying on this data aren't even American constituents.

                                                                                                                • genewitch

                                                                                                                  today at 3:50 AM

                                                                                                                  But it cost us at least $15,000,000, right? It's this "this is cheap compared to the value it provides" has analogs in coupon clipping shopaholics: "you don't understand, it was 50% off!" Right, but it still cost money, a significant amount.

                                                                                                                  I could live forever on $15mm, and help so many people off just dividends and yeild. $15mm is a lot of money.

                                                                                                                    • ikr678

                                                                                                                      today at 5:07 AM

                                                                                                                      You could help dozens of people, at best.

                                                                                                                      $15 mil to shame the Chinese Govt (among others) to action and encourage citizen discontent was a bargain.

                                                                                                                      You couldnt possibly run an ad campaign to tell 1 billion people their govt was lying for less than $15mil.

                                                                                                                        • genewitch

                                                                                                                          today at 5:16 AM

                                                                                                                          This assumes that "Chinese" "Citizens" didn't notice the air in their cities looks like AAA game textures from the mid 2000s. It also assumes that "Chinese" "Citizens" will pay attention to the US about an AQI number (or whatever the data was).

                                                                                                                          Also have you ever been to the L.A. Basin?

                                                                                                                            • diggan

                                                                                                                              today at 8:01 AM

                                                                                                                              > This assumes that "Chinese" "Citizens" didn't notice the air in their cities looks like AAA game textures from the mid 2000s. It also assumes that "Chinese" "Citizens" will pay attention to the US about an AQI number (or whatever the data was).

                                                                                                                              You don't have to assume anything, this is a real (past) event that has happened:

                                                                                                                              > In 2008, the US Embassy in Beijing started regularly tweeting about the air quality in the city, which was gearing up to host China’s first Olympic Games. Two times a day, the embassy automatically published current pollution levels measured by an air quality monitor installed on its roof in collaboration with the US Environmental Protection Agency. The data contradicted the figures published by the local government, angering local officials and eventually spurring China to clean up the air in its capital city.

                                                                                                                              https://www.wired.com/story/air-monitoring-beijing-state-dep...

                                                                                                                              Clearly, having numbers that are/seemed more trustworthy had a large and good impact on the city and it's inhabitants.

                                                                                                                      • lurk2

                                                                                                                        today at 7:02 AM

                                                                                                                        I don't know what it costs. My point is that this doesn't seem like an example of Washington Monument syndrome because the people most impacted by the closure can't vote.

                                                                                                                        • tayo42

                                                                                                                          today at 4:52 AM

                                                                                                                          People really struggle with big numbers. 15 million for the government isn't a lot of money. and even for most big businesses it isn't a lot of money. The government spends trillions every year.

                                                                                                                          15 million divided by the ~150million taxpayers in the US is ten cents per person. Do you pick up dimes off the street?

                                                                                                                            • genewitch

                                                                                                                              today at 5:19 AM

                                                                                                                              $79.1 billion over 10 years was "wasted" as fraud and other "should not have paid", according to the Social Security administration.

                                                                                                                              That's 5,273 people like me getting $15,000,000.

                                                                                                                              > It's this "this is cheap compared to the value it provides" has analogs in coupon clipping shopaholics: "you don't understand, it was 50% off!" Right, but it still cost money, a significant amount.

                                                                                                                              this is the main thrust. Sure, it's like a dime to the government. have you ever heard the phrase "nickel and dimed"? How many "$15 million dollar" nickels do you need to stack before it becomes a culture problem in the federal government?

                                                                                                                              It's thinking like you espoused in that last sentence that lead to waste and fraud. "it's like a dime compared to our budget, what's the big deal?"

                                                                                                                              there's a lot of dimes.

                                                                                                                                • apical_dendrite

                                                                                                                                  today at 5:37 AM

                                                                                                                                  Social security pays out $1.5 trillion a year. If only $8 billion a year is lost to fraud, that means fraud is 0.5%.

                                                                                                                                  It's impossible to design a system with zero fraud, but keeping it under 0.5% is very impressive.

                                                                                                                                  • vohk

                                                                                                                                    today at 7:13 AM

                                                                                                                                    > That's 5,273 people like me getting $15,000,000.

                                                                                                                                    That's also each American citizen getting... $23.27 each year for 10 years.

                                                                                                                                    People are just awful at conceptualizing large numbers. Assuming that number is accurate, $7.9 billion is wasted in the process of delivering $1.6 trillion in 2024. Waste and loss scales with the work being done, it doesn't care that you got sticker shock.

                                                                                                                                    I challenge you to find anything you do in your day with greater than 99.5% efficiency. You waste a higher percentage of the food you eat, stuck to the pan.

                                                                                                                                    • tayo42

                                                                                                                                      today at 5:37 AM

                                                                                                                                      Why are you one of the lucky 5000 to get 15million? What your saying make no sense. Your number of 79 billion, would actually be $50/ tax payer/ per year for 10 years. So like one or two free dinners?

                                                                                                                                      So idk what you mean its a lot of dimes.

                                                                                                                                      > How many "$15 million dollar" nickels

                                                                                                                                      Its 4 million "nickles", you can do the math to get to 6 trillion. 15 million is 0.00025% of what is spent per year. You need to save 15 million dollars, millions of times to do anything significant to amount being spent.

                                                                                                                                      You going on about coupons doesn't really make sense here, the amounts aren't significant. Again because people think about large amounts of money how it applies to them personally without being able to grasp what actually gets spent by large organizations. Its like when someone posts here about saving 10k in AWS spend, when their company does millions in revenue and the engineer cost at least 100/hour

                                                                                                                      • chasd00

                                                                                                                        today at 3:45 AM

                                                                                                                        Yeah what does “air quality data network” even mean? Do they have dedicated circuits between all the consulates and then some pop somewhere all for air quality sensors? If so, then it deserves to be shutdown because that would be grossly over engineered for the task. Imagine, an entire dedicated network and all the gear and lease expense that comes with it to read some sensors from a rest api.

                                                                                                                          • kelnos

                                                                                                                            today at 3:57 AM

                                                                                                                            I'm sure all it is is some sensors at each embassy that sends a HTTP POST or MQTT message or whatever to some central server at the EPA to send measurements, and then the AirNow app has access to that data via some API that reads from a DB.

                                                                                                                            • ImaCake

                                                                                                                              today at 3:59 AM

                                                                                                                              Air Quality network usually refers to just having at least one air quality monitoring station. There's no special network here, they usually just use 4G.

                                                                                                                              The stations themselves run between $100 to $50,000.

                                                                                                                              • defrost

                                                                                                                                today at 3:54 AM

                                                                                                                                > Do they have dedicated circuits between all the consulates

                                                                                                                                Yes .. multiple parallel and redundant dedicated highly secure encrypted clean room communications between embassies and home with the bandwith for multiple high res video data, satellite feeds etc.

                                                                                                                                > because that would be grossly over engineered for the task.

                                                                                                                                You think US embassy networks are grossly over engineered to be resistant to Chinese, Russian, North Korean, Iranian, Isreali, spy networks?

                                                                                                                                Over engineered? .. there are museums dedicated to sneaky arse spy gear, eg:

                                                                                                                                https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Thing_(listening_device)

                                                                                                                                > Imagine, an entire dedicated network and all the gear and lease expense ...

                                                                                                                                and yet being unable to handle the tiny addition load of some once per minute analog sensor data?

                                                                                                                                In real terms the air quality network costs ride for free on what already exists.

                                                                                                                        • LightHugger

                                                                                                                          today at 8:01 AM

                                                                                                                          I don't know but it might be the highest profile thing that specific department can muster.

                                                                                                                      • IshKebab

                                                                                                                        today at 9:00 AM

                                                                                                                        What underlying network are they not funding anyway? Did they turn off the internet?

                                                                                                                        Difficult to see how they are saving any money by turning off something they've already bought that has essentially zero running costs.

                                                                                                                        Something doesn't add up for sure.

                                                                                                                    • rqtwteye

                                                                                                                      today at 1:55 AM

                                                                                                                      This is just nuts. Stuff like this is what made the US a leader. I bet next is to turn off GPS outside the US because no money. That's how you lose world leadership.

                                                                                                                        • energy123

                                                                                                                          today at 5:37 AM

                                                                                                                          To the populist right, everything is zero-sum, all effects are first order, all effects are immediate, and all effects only impact the parties to a transaction.

                                                                                                                          Soft power doesn't exist. Iterated games don't exist. Long-term consequences don't exist. Externalities don't exist. Positive sum utility gains don't exist. Systemic effects don't exist. It's all too abstract and cognitively difficult, it's the business of the arrogant intelligentsia.

                                                                                                                          The problem for them is that reality isn't going to adjust to fit their worldview. The decline will eventually reach people's purchasing power. The laws of reality will catch up to them.

                                                                                                                            • matwood

                                                                                                                              today at 8:56 AM

                                                                                                                              > all effects are first order

                                                                                                                              Basically they are mostly below average intelligence. The ability to think about second, third, N order effects is a sign of intelligence which is clearly lacking here. Those in power are leveraging that lack of intelligence in the populist right to execute their larger plan of dismantling the government for the benefit of the super rich.

                                                                                                                              • sdenton4

                                                                                                                                today at 7:56 AM

                                                                                                                                The scary part is that when the consequences come, these people tend to look for a new scape goat rather than learn anything...

                                                                                                                                • owisd

                                                                                                                                  today at 8:39 AM

                                                                                                                                  Most have the same zero-sum first-order attitude to free speech, and couldn't see what's happening now was always going to be net worse for free speech than any controls that could have been put in place to reduce the chance of getting to this point.

                                                                                                                                  • aqueueaqueue

                                                                                                                                    today at 9:10 AM

                                                                                                                                    It's worse. They see bad things happen, then ask the question "how do I keep my faith in Donald through this"? (Not rhetorically)

                                                                                                                                    • HPsquared

                                                                                                                                      today at 9:14 AM

                                                                                                                                      I don't know about that, conservatives (well, free marketeers anyway) favour second-order effects in economics, and win-win and all that stuff when it comes to free markets. The trouble is that the populist right is now moving away from free markets.

                                                                                                                                      (It's almost a return to the old setup, back in the days of the Corn Laws etc - free markets used to be a left-wing position while the right was into mercantilism / protectionism)

                                                                                                                                      • JumpCrisscross

                                                                                                                                        today at 7:29 AM

                                                                                                                                        > Soft power doesn't exist

                                                                                                                                        I just realised that per their own stories we’ve got a government headed by folks with extreme daddy issues. I’m not turning this into a Vox article. But perhaps there is overlap between leaders who can’t empathise and whose who admit to having had a trash upbringing.

                                                                                                                                          • jajko

                                                                                                                                            today at 9:25 AM

                                                                                                                                            Yeah folks tend to make fun of it, but from my experience missing or simply broken dysfunctional father figure a massive thing for both women and men that they will struggle to cope with (and mostly fail) during their whole lives.

                                                                                                                                        • ainiriand

                                                                                                                                          today at 6:06 AM

                                                                                                                                          You have put into words exactly my thoughts on this topic.

                                                                                                                                          • globular-toast

                                                                                                                                            today at 7:07 AM

                                                                                                                                            I've said it before, it's like these guys turned up to study economics, learnt about free markets on day 1, then just went home.

                                                                                                                                              • aqueueaqueue

                                                                                                                                                today at 9:11 AM

                                                                                                                                                In a free market, Doge would fire Elon.

                                                                                                                                            • jiggawatts

                                                                                                                                              today at 7:01 AM

                                                                                                                                              > The problem for them is that reality isn't going to adjust to fit their worldview.

                                                                                                                                              The perpetual problem is that it will in the short term!

                                                                                                                                              It’s just like the MBAs juicing profits by cutting R&D spending — this works every time!

                                                                                                                                              It works, and it works long enough for a few to reap the benefits at the expense of the many.

                                                                                                                                              This will play out over and over until we somehow magically achieve the Star Trek future utopia.

                                                                                                                                          • jauntywundrkind

                                                                                                                                            today at 2:34 AM

                                                                                                                                            In general, the principles of democracy are that the people of the nation can steer the nation towards a better place. To do so, people need access to information, need access to information on what the state of their nation and the state of the world is.

                                                                                                                                            These acts that teardown the information that the US makes available, that help us shape our decision making & view of the world, are deeply horrifically un-democratic. To march us from a nation that advocates sunlight & democracy, back into the dark is horror.

                                                                                                                                              • bruce511

                                                                                                                                                today at 3:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                >> In general, the principles of democracy are that the people of the nation can steer the nation

                                                                                                                                                Yes.

                                                                                                                                                >> towards a better place.

                                                                                                                                                Weeelll, where the population steer it to isn't really determined by any principles. Rather it goes wherever the population steers it to.

                                                                                                                                                Sometimes the population gets it wrong, and with open eyes pick an option that takes them to a worse place.

                                                                                                                                                Yes, information helps (hence campaigning) but that information has always been gate-kept. That was seen as a flaw.

                                                                                                                                                Turns out though information is like water; you need enough, but too much and you drown.

                                                                                                                                                Anti-vaxers don't exist because of a lack of information. People who voted for tarrifs don't have restricted information. People have shown over and over a willingness to vote against their own best interest, as long as you provide someone else to blame.

                                                                                                                                                  • tuan

                                                                                                                                                    today at 3:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                    > Turns out though information is like water; you need enough, but too much and you drown.

                                                                                                                                                    How do we slow down or control the flow of information ? Genuine question. I'm just asking to see if there are any studies or proposals that already exist out there.

                                                                                                                                                    I've heard people talk about education. But this seems to be part of a long term solution. How can we solve this problem now so that in the next election (next 2 or 4 years) people will not vote against their own best interests ?

                                                                                                                                                    Convincing people to quit social medias or stopping listening to TV pundits ? So far that hasn't worked. Facebook/Tiktok just keeps growing.

                                                                                                                                                      • eddythompson80

                                                                                                                                                        today at 7:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                        >> How do we slow down or control the flow of information ?

                                                                                                                                                        It’s not a completely new problem. Voltaire wrote about this in Candide in the 1750s. I’m sure there are other (earlier or contemporary) examples that I don’t know, but Candide is the one obvious (partial) commentary on the “flood of information” phenomenon that always comes to my mind. Voltaire’s conclusion was to just ignore it. Worry about your own life. Live on a farm and work a physically exhausting job every day then spend your nights with your family and loved ones that you have no time for all the frivolous noise of news and world events that don’t affect you. When there is an actual signal among the noise, it’ll reach you and you should use your educated/good instinct that you have cultivated from the prior years when you were young and absorbing knowledge and information, and vote accordingly.

                                                                                                                                                        Obviously this is my interpretation of the work. Also obviously Voltaire was a very vocal opponent of voting and the will of the masses to enact real political and societal change through education and general shift in social beliefs and attitudes. He was also an advocate for acceptance of others and in Candide he had the wise old man who gives the final philosophical point in the book be a Turkish Muslim man in opposition to everything Christian French people believed in the 1700s. He was also a massive racist against black Africans and didn’t even consider them humans. Soooo your mileage may vary.

                                                                                                                                                        • bruce511

                                                                                                                                                          today at 4:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                          >> How do we slow down or control the flow of information ?

                                                                                                                                                          There's no way that genie goes back into the bottle. And even if you could that's not the issue, people believe whatever they want to believe.

                                                                                                                                                          Ultimately education is a good start but if anything US education (which of course is very democratic) is getting worse not better. Book banning and burning spring to mind.

                                                                                                                                                          The real root of the issue is individualism over collective good. That's pretty baked into the American psyche (not to mention baked into the constitution) so no amount of education will change that.

                                                                                                                                                          For example it's obvious that fewer guns would reduce violence- that's been shown to be true many times over. But the individual's right to bear arms is baked in and not going away.

                                                                                                                                                          Of course this isn't necessarily a bad thing. The US acts as a counterbalance to other systems and other ways of life. It fights for women's rights in the middle east and Afghanistan. It traditionally stood up for the little guy against the neighborhood bully (think Kuwait and Iraq).

                                                                                                                                                          The pendulum will swing, but just as the USSR exited the world stage, the USA is now doing the same. All empires rise and fall. The gaps left by USaid will be filled by others. China is already buying influence in Africa and Asia.

                                                                                                                                                      • mola

                                                                                                                                                        today at 6:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                        They exist because of justified lack of trust , and by people taking advantage advantage of that lack of trust.for their own benefit.

                                                                                                                                                        (Mis)Information is just the tool.

                                                                                                                                                        Being the world leader in everything was whatade the US great, these sort of data networks was part of what made it great.

                                                                                                                                                        What made it less great is the decimation of all industry except for PR,finance,services and software. Plus the fact corporates were allowed to buy politicians.

                                                                                                                                                        This caused all the wealth to be super concentrated.

                                                                                                                                                        The losers were gaslighted and completely lost trust in the system.

                                                                                                                                                        Now the vultures come to finish the job. Blaming transgenders and immigrants for all the problems.

                                                                                                                                                    • keybored

                                                                                                                                                      today at 4:35 AM

                                                                                                                                                      The US does not live democratic principles. Not domestically and much less in interactions on the world stage.

                                                                                                                                                  • DidYaWipe

                                                                                                                                                    today at 2:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                    Our "world leadership" is rapidly becoming a distant memory.

                                                                                                                                                      • metalliqaz

                                                                                                                                                        today at 2:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                        it's already gone. as soon as we re-elected the felon, everyone knew they couldn't trust us

                                                                                                                                                          • graeme

                                                                                                                                                            today at 4:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                            This is downvoted but for those outside the US it's actually true. Or more specifically once the new admin began acting erratically.

                                                                                                                                                            For instance, in Canada he has repudiated a trade agreement he himself negotiated in his first term and threatened repeatedly to annex us.

                                                                                                                                                            Americans who treat foreigners as abstractions shrug off that sort of thing and assume you can go back to normal but reliability is shot and trust is broken.

                                                                                                                                                            In term one the remaining vestiges of Republican and state apparatus ensured continuity on many fronts. That's all gone.

                                                                                                                                                            • wraaath

                                                                                                                                                              today at 2:59 AM

                                                                                                                                                              they already knew they couldn't trust us after 2016, electing a known grifter clown.

                                                                                                                                                                • Sabinus

                                                                                                                                                                  today at 3:09 AM

                                                                                                                                                                  The sense I got is that it could be overlooked as an anomaly. The second time he was elected, and the actions he has taken since, have absolutely ended all that. The Allies are truly incensed, the US's reputation won't recover for decades.

                                                                                                                                                                    • catdog

                                                                                                                                                                      today at 8:01 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      Exactly that. Not only he got re-elected, during his first term he did bad things but what he did now while not even 2 months in office seems way worse. Also it's clearly visible that the checks and balances are now severely broken, you have an administration not even abiding its own countries laws in very fundamental areas, that does not spark trust. Heck he even discredits and breaks trade deals signed by himself, who can trust such a country?

                                                                                                                                                                      It was easy to justify sitting out Trump I as a (former) US allied, Trump II demands immediate action.

                                                                                                                                                                      • Aeolun

                                                                                                                                                                        today at 3:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        It’s a loss of trust. We were in the process of getting better relations with Russia, but then when Putin goes and invades Ukraine you can sort of rationalize it. Communist gonna communist right?

                                                                                                                                                                        All the actions potato head has taken are a deliberate slap in the face of all their allies. Maybe something we’d expect from potato head, but not from the United States. Even given he was elected we’d expect the rest if your political system to stop a single man from burning down all bridges. Clearly that was an incorrect assumption.

                                                                                                                                                                          • umanwizard

                                                                                                                                                                            today at 3:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                                            Putin isn’t in any way a communist.

                                                                                                                                                                              • Aeolun

                                                                                                                                                                                today at 8:55 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                Congratulations, now can you respond to the contents of the message, instead of jumping on technicalities?

                                                                                                                                                                                How is whether he is actually a communist relevant to the substance of what I wrote?

                                                                                                                                                                                The point is that he wasn’t exactly trustworthy to begin with, and an erstwhile enemy. You don’t feel betrayed when your enemy does what you expected him to.

                                                                                                                                                                                • Braxton1980

                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 4:48 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  As a former KGB officer wouldn't he be the most likely to want a return to the old ways?

                                                                                                                                                                                    • umanwizard

                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 4:52 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      What does the KGB have to do with communism? A lot of countries have had draconian secret police and spy agencies, regardless of whether those countries were communist or not.

                                                                                                                                                                                      For example, the Gestapo in Nazi-era Germany.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • wraaath

                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 4:04 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    He's an autocrat acting on delusions of empire building. That is the root of Russia invading Ukraine. All the other excuses are ancillary or nonsense (Nazis etc)

                                                                                                                                                                                      • umanwizard

                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 4:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        True, but unrelated to whether he's a communist. There are authoritarian and libertarian communists but Putin is neither.

                                                                                                                                                                        • SoftTalker

                                                                                                                                                                          today at 3:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          Biden was elected in 2020.

                                                                                                                                                                            • wraaath

                                                                                                                                                                              today at 4:14 AM

                                                                                                                                                                              Highly likely that Trump's bumbling of COVID resulted in Biden's election. In NYC there were refrigerated tractor trailers parked outside of hospitals for the overflow dead. I'm sure it was just as bad in other parts of the country during those months. Curious how quickly people forget, and I'm sure we'll have to relearn these lessons yet again.

                                                                                                                                                                                • tdeck

                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 4:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  > Curious how quickly people forget, and I'm sure we'll have to relearn these lessons yet again.

                                                                                                                                                                                  I think some of this forgetting was attributable to the Biden administration's decision to suddenly start acting like COVID didn't exist. It's pretty hard to remind people of metrics from the past when you're also simultaneously trying to avoid talking about those same metrics in the present.

                                                                                                                                                              • JumpCrisscross

                                                                                                                                                                today at 7:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                > bet next is to turn off GPS outside the US because no money

                                                                                                                                                                Outside America? They’ll just fire the team responsible for maintaining the birds and then act surprised when they degrade.

                                                                                                                                                                • epistasis

                                                                                                                                                                  today at 2:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                  The elites of the country that are now in power don't care about world leadership, much less the soft power that we had that made us all very rich, that made a plumber in the US make $7k a month while in much of Europe that plumber would only make $3k a month.

                                                                                                                                                                  They care about enriching themselves as much as possible. It's all short-term gain, without any view for the future. Get those tax cuts, reallocate money away from the government and away from those who work for a living and make a true oligarch class.

                                                                                                                                                                  If events continue down this route, the US is looking at a lost decade or even permanent loss of leadership, letting China catch up and then step up, or maybe India.

                                                                                                                                                                    • bruce511

                                                                                                                                                                      today at 3:29 AM

                                                                                                                                                                      >> that made a plumber in the US make $7k a month while in much of Europe that plumber would only make $3k a month.

                                                                                                                                                                      I'm not trying to derail the thread, but framing your point as "magnitude of salary" is meaningless and perhaps reflects one of the issues.

                                                                                                                                                                      It's not the size of the salary that's important- it's the quality of life. Salary is one factor in the equation, but it's not the only factor.

                                                                                                                                                                      For example, in the US the plumber pays for health care. In Europe he mostly does not.

                                                                                                                                                                      There are a million things that go into a very subjective quality of live assessment. Salary is part of it, yes, but ultimately only a part.

                                                                                                                                                                      And, if we're being honest, the US certainly acts the part of leader, it talks a good game, and everyone is happy to take their money. But is anyone actually following their lead?

                                                                                                                                                                        • pjerem

                                                                                                                                                                          today at 6:26 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          With huge respect, I’m an European SWE making a little more than 3k net (which means that what’s left after all taxes).

                                                                                                                                                                          I own a nice house in a countryside village that I bought recently (so at the current market price), 10 min walking distance from the train station. I can afford premium quality food, I have enough money (and time !) to go on vacation 4 to 5 weeks per year (not just holidays but going abroad as a tourist). I own two cars. I’ll have a retirement.

                                                                                                                                                                          Life hasn’t been cool on me on the last decade : I had to go under a 100+k surgery, I now take a treatment of about 150€/month. My grandmother had a stroke and is now living hospitalized under my dad’s roof. I did a burnout and stayed 1 year at home to recover. And you know what ? Everything of this had barely any impact on our finances. Everything health related : 0 impact.

                                                                                                                                                                          Now everything is fine, my health is better, I still have strong savings, still own my house, my grandmother is greatly taken care of…

                                                                                                                                                                          I would never exchange that for the extra 4k I could lose at any moment without notice because life.

                                                                                                                                                                            • consp

                                                                                                                                                                              today at 7:19 AM

                                                                                                                                                                              Interesting because income and location wise I am in the same boat but there is no way in hell I will ever own a house. So my assumption is you likely have a partner with equal income which triples your free spendable income.

                                                                                                                                                                                • pjerem

                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 7:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  To be fully transparent, I do have a partner but she doesn’t earn as much as me, she earns less than 2k€/month.

                                                                                                                                                                                  You are right to make the point that I couldn’t afford this lifestyle if I were alone without a family. Though I’d have very few interest in owning a 120m2 family house in this case, I’d probably live in a way cheaper apartment. I think being alone in the French countryside would be pretty boring, unless you are lucky enough to be near your friends and family.

                                                                                                                                                                                  Also, my point was absolutely not to compare European vs American lifestyle, saying which is better or going into the details, I just wanted to stress that comparing comfort of life by comparing revenue is not possible. It’s way more complex than "European earns less but don’t have to pay for healthcare".

                                                                                                                                                                          • epistasis

                                                                                                                                                                            today at 3:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                            Quality of life is something that many people evaluate along very very different metrics at different weights. But losing that $7k and bringing it down to $3k does not look like it will be accompanied by plumbers no longer paying for healthcare out of pocket.

                                                                                                                                                                            One measure of the lead of the US is how it is a destination for those looking to create great science, a great startup, build a business, or otherwise build a long-lasting contributor to our institutions. Europe, Japan, other places certainly rank highly here too, but the US is by far the biggest player and attracts the most people as far as I can tell.

                                                                                                                                                                              • bruce511

                                                                                                                                                                                today at 4:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                Science is pretty global. The cutting edge of fusion is in France, CERN is in Switzerland, the SKA is in South Africa, and so on.

                                                                                                                                                                                On the other hand, VC money for nothing more than a good pitch is certainly easier in the US. Although even there it's limited to very small (very expensive) parts of the US.

                                                                                                                                                                                One measure of QOL is indeed immigration. The US and Europe both struggle with illegal immigration. The US likely attracts more legal immigration, but to be fair even that is mostly from non-European places.

                                                                                                                                                                                It's not like there's an army of European plumbers desperately trying to get into the US.

                                                                                                                                                                                The weather is better in Europe (but both are waaaay worse than Australia. )

                                                                                                                                                                                And yes QOL is very subjective. Which speaks to my point, simply plucking a single metric like salary out the air is meaningless- even within the US that 7k will mean different things depending on where you live.

                                                                                                                                                                        • 9283409232

                                                                                                                                                                          today at 2:32 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          The view for the future is cutting the US into city-states that they control. They are just following the playbook of Curtis Yarvin.

                                                                                                                                                                      • brabel

                                                                                                                                                                        today at 7:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                        Well, it's a good thing that the US stop acting like the world leader/police in everything. The US is just a country among many and it is about time it starts acting like that. And it's about time the "Western world" stops relying on the US for basic stuff like national defense.

                                                                                                                                                                        More to the topic: why the hell are the US embassies reporting other countries' cities air quality? While it's a "nice" thing to do, it would be even nicer if those countries monitored that themselves. The fact that we think we need the US to do it because other countries tend to be dishonest about it is incredibly depressing.

                                                                                                                                                                        • hujun

                                                                                                                                                                          today at 5:06 AM

                                                                                                                                                                          nah, GPS is needed by US outside US as well, I bet someone will propose a 'great' idea to start charging for it

                                                                                                                                                                            • insane_dreamer

                                                                                                                                                                              today at 5:37 AM

                                                                                                                                                                              or they could replace it with Starlink (no conflict of interest, obviously), which can be used for global positioning

                                                                                                                                                                          • hello_moto

                                                                                                                                                                            today at 2:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                            Makes the Krasnov theory even stronger... how the tide has turned in terms of Conspiracy Theory no?

                                                                                                                                                                            • evan_

                                                                                                                                                                              today at 2:14 AM

                                                                                                                                                                              don't give them any ideas.

                                                                                                                                                                              • kevmo

                                                                                                                                                                                today at 2:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                Does Peter Thiel still get a piece of all the YC startups?

                                                                                                                                                                                • keybored

                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 4:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                  The US is a world hegemon. That’s a well-defined concept. I don’t know what being a leader means in this context.

                                                                                                                                                                                  It seems that it is just what the US and its cronies claim to be. Which works on any topic:

                                                                                                                                                                                  1. If it does something “good”: self-evident

                                                                                                                                                                                  2. If it does something “bad” or fails to do something good: just say that it is failing to be a “leader” like it obviously has been since sometime (post-WWII maybe). Yeah, even negative evidence can perpetuate the same narrative. Just wistfully look at the mythic past without questioning the premise.

                                                                                                                                                                                  • today at 3:32 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                    • throwccp

                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 3:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                      [dead]

                                                                                                                                                                                      • Freedom2

                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 3:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        The US can still be a leader, I think. I'm curious as to if this is the time for a YC-funded startup to take the reins for a lot of the programs and policies being cut. As geohot showed unequivocally yesterday, who else is better to lead than the technical minds of the 21st century!

                                                                                                                                                                                          • epistasis

                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 3:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                            What sort of startup could ever replace the services that are being performed? The point of a startup is increase value massively by building revenue. The services that are being cut are meant to be public infrastructure upon which everybody else builds their startup, that enables all the innovation that makes the US a leader.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • maigret

                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 8:31 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              You’ll see people not wanting to buy a lot of US stuff soon. I definitely increased my activities around that lately. Netflix is next to go.

                                                                                                                                                                                      • ta988

                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 2:42 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                        They really found the most efficient way to reduce every dependency the rest of the world had on the US. When the US will finally wake up, there will be nothing left but countries ready to sell their better technology to the US and maybe not even sell it in dollars.

                                                                                                                                                                                        • meindnoch

                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 8:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                          This is just petty. I refuse to believe any measurable amount of money could be saved here.

                                                                                                                                                                                          • Havoc

                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 9:11 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                            If they keep going with this sort of self imposed irrelevance it’ll eventually threatened USD reserve currency status.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • owenpalmer

                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 3:02 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              > The stop in sharing data was “due to funding constraints that have caused the Department to turn off the underlying network”

                                                                                                                                                                                              What is the actual recurring cost of broadcasting this data? The sensor and network infrastructure are presumably already established.

                                                                                                                                                                                            • feverzsj

                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 4:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                              Good or bad, influence is the most powerful weapon of a superpower in peace time. Cutting it off won't save your money but instead weaken the country.

                                                                                                                                                                                              • teekert

                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 6:00 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                Thank you US for providing us with air quality data for all those years!

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • eliaskg

                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 8:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    Have you said thank you once?

                                                                                                                                                                                                • lunarboy

                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 3:58 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                  How does this reduce the fraud in the federal spending? How does this decrease inflation, and make america great again?

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • sixothree

                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 4:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                  • Aeolun

                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 3:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                    In light of all recent news, this seems stupid, but almost banal in comparison to everything else.

                                                                                                                                                                                                    • asix66

                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 2:33 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                      https://map.purpleair.com/

                                                                                                                                                                                                      • bvan

                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 3:16 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                        Absolutely tragic. Trump is literally dragging the country back into the proverbial cave or dark ages. Just take NOAA for example: gutting this agency has widespread 2nd and 3rd order consequences the Trump administration is either clueless or willfully ignorant about. This administration is screwing over generations to come.

                                                                                                                                                                                                        • msie

                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 1:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                          The GOP are so petty.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • DidYaWipe

                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 2:28 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                              That is exactly what came to mind when I read this.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              I mean... who is mining for this stuff? The sheer SCOPE of the pettiness is mind-boggling, set against a backdrop of... no ideas whatsoever to move the country forward. No initiatives. No ambitious plan for Americans to get excited about.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Trump has never even submitted a PROPOSAL for anything. For example, his awesome new healthcare plan, promised over and over and finally promised "in two weeks," on July 19, 2020.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • outside1234

                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 2:15 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                And stupid, because you just know that this is still costing us the same amount of money.

                                                                                                                                                                                                            • iamshs

                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 2:46 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                              Indian Government would be so relieved. US Embassy data was the most reliable one cited to highlight the pollution crises in Delhi, the nation's capital. Otherwise for their own sensors, they sometimes just sprayed them with artificial water showers to change climate around the sensors.

                                                                                                                                                                                                              • dyauspitr

                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 4:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                Our president is an enemy of the state.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • oneshtein

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 5:57 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    ... or friend of an enemy state.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    He uses same arguments as other friends of RF.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                • xyst

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 9:24 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Yet another blow to the American hegemony by the kleptocracy cabinet.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • ZeroGravitas

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 7:50 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Beijing air quality problems famously put China's renewables and EV programs into overdrive. I don't think you needed scientific measurements to know there was a problem but I wonder how much the outside data helped crystallize a real engineering response rather than a coverup.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    "The air we breathe: lessons from Beijing’s airpocalypse"

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    https://www.smithschool.ox.ac.uk/news/air-we-breathe-lessons...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    If this isn't just random unplugging of things and there's not a Trump aligned oligarch selling competing data (like the AccuWeather guy) it might be fossil fuel corps looking to hide the damage they do.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • DidYaWipe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 2:30 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                      What could this have possibly cost? $10 a day worldwide? Pathetic.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • viceconsole

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 5:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I worked in a US consulate in a country with bad air pollution and developed asthma for the first time in my life during my two year tour there. I've since left that country (and the job) but still suffer the effects of the exposure. I used both the State Department provided AQI numbers as well as the host country's numbers to plan when and whether to spend time outside.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          None of the reporting I've seen on the issue has investigated the cost of the program. On the subreddit for State Department Foreign Service Officers, which I still frequent, the most plausible estimates for the installation of this equipment at a single foreign post range from $180k to $250k, plus ongoing maintenance that would require flying in private contractors from the U.S. and putting them up in a 5 star hotel (in countries where you need this type of monitoring, hotels less than 5 stars generally don't meet Western standards). [1]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          There has to be some kind of middle path between take a chainsaw to anything that has the word "environment" in it, and spending the cost of four years at a private college to install equipment that is available off the shelf for a few hundred dollars. (Yes, I know consumer grade equipment won't cut it, there are major network security concerns, etc., but surely it could be done at 10x or 20x the cost of a consumer solution, not 500x).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          [1] https://www.reddit.com/r/foreignservice/comments/1j3owmk/com...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • aqueueaqueue

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 9:13 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            While I agree are we gonna do that? It is like saying why does Twitter need so many people I can do that in a weekend.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • lurk2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 2:54 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                              I have a hard time believing a service like this wouldn't have employed at least one person full time. There is no way it cost anywhere remotely in the neighborhood of $10 a day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • DidYaWipe

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 9:07 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Obviously I'm not including the original cost of the equipment and installation. I'm talking about transmitting the data. The story claims that the equipment will continue to run and the data will be collected; the complained-about cost is that of "the network."

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I imagine public Internet or Starlink would suffice to upload daily readings. But sure, that's speculation from someone who knows nothing about how it works.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • aqueueaqueue

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 9:17 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Politicians misusing a technical term. I doubt they mean the literal network interface cards and broadband bill. Even if they did it is more than $10. They mean the operation as a service with a human to troubleshoot.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If not, why isn't tailscale free for everyone?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • scubadude

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 3:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    So someone got a job from it. They paid income tax, spent their salary at the local stores, which paid other people's salaries who paid income tax and spend their salary at the local stores. Why is this a problem. Reducing all this employment reduces money flowing around the economy (a factor in the Great Depression).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • the_sleaze_

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 3:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      This is an absolutely paltry change in light of other avenues to recoup revenue. And even if it were not, the way to change these systems is not to delete them but to restructure their incentives.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      However.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Let's not kid ourselves that this program probably cost upwards of several million dollars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      - Wired cut my access just before I was able to cite, but someone said the program cost "just tens of thousands of dollars a year, because equipment had already been purchased". The cost of procure install and maintenance I would imagine was wildly excessive.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • lurk2

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 6:45 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I don't disagree that cutting the program seems shortsighted. The issue I took with the grandparent comment is that it was simply uninformed.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Let's not kid ourselves that this program probably cost upwards of several million dollars.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          That's completely within the realm of possibility. I'd be surprised if you could set up any program at a federal level with less funding than that. 2 million dollars is a 25 man team if salaries and overhead are $80,000 per head. I really have no insight into what these kinds of programs cost, but I guarantee there is no way you're standing up servers in 100+ embassies for $10 a day.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          > Wired cut my access just before I was able to cite

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          This is the same as not citing a source at all. Another user commented [0] that each of these servers cost somewhere in the neighborhood of $180,000 to $250,000 just to set up.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          [0] - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=43276805

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • mc32

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 3:12 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Good sensors are not cheap, they need recalibration, the app needs to be continually maintained. Some entity probably has a stupendous contract to maintain it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • defrost

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 3:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        From the reports I've read it would seem that the sensors remain and will likely be maintained .. it's the public display of the data via the internet that's been cut.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        By all means whittle the fat from a third party contract on data delivery .. the sensor maintainance part is likely tricky but not challenging and has a real cost far less than mean cost of an embassy security staffer, being the kind of thing that takes an hour or so a month at most (once setup and running).

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        ( FWiW I maintained, coded aquisition for, wrote presentation layers, for high end professional multi channel geophysical instrumentation: gravity, magnetics, radiometrics, lidar, radar, barometrics, twin gps + base station, etc )

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • vaidhy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 3:23 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          It is so easy to assume the worst and corrupt outcome as if it were the most logical one.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • insane_dreamer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 5:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            Aren't the embassies keeping the sensors? I'm quite sure embassy staff would want AQI for their own information, especially in cities where official numbers are dubious.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            My understanding is that it just won't be _shared_ anymore. And the _sharing_ can't cost much.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • refurb

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 3:38 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      If I open IQAir, I see dozens of monitoring stations in every country. Even in Myanmar, which is a developing country in the middle of a civil war there are 7 monitoring stations in Yangon.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Considering the US typically has only a handful of embassies and consultants in countries, and they are located in major cities, it comes across as a hyperbole when describing the loss of a few stations as setting back air quality monitoring globally.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • ImaCake

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 4:04 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          Not all stations are built equal, but I do agree that this is mostly symbolic. But it could be a harbinger of much more problematic censoring of US air quality data.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • insane_dreamer

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 5:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            It's the symbolism of it that has the greatest impact.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            But in Beijing specifically, the US embassy air quality measurements had a significant impact on government policy to improve air quality. The same can be true in other countries where information is tightly controlled.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • aaron695

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 6:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          [dead]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • BurningFrog

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 3:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            [flagged]

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • defrost

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 3:40 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Like the ebola program they "turned off and then back on again" ?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  "I disagree fully, completely, wholly, that they recognized the mistake and put it back," says Dr. Craig Spencer, an emergency physician and professor at Brown University School of Public Health, who has worked on Ebola for more than a decade and responded to Ebola outbreaks in Africa. 
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Musk says work to stop Ebola was accidentally cut but restored. Experts raise doubts

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                ~ https://www.npr.org/sections/goats-and-soda/2025/02/27/g-s1-...

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Within USAID's Global Health Bureau there was a team of people that specialized in high risk outbreaks, like Ebola. "Virtually all of those people have been pushed out of the agency, and they have not been brought back. Only a very small handful — like low single digits — remain from what had been something like a 30 person team,
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Many regulars at HN understand how poorly complex systems in the real world respond to hard outages and cold restarts.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                • Aurornis

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  today at 3:48 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  These aren’t systems you just toggle off and then back on if you realize you miss it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Once you do the layoffs and shrink the organizations, those people go get other jobs. You can’t just flip a switch and have everyone back like before.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  You have to rebuild the organization. It’s expensive. It’s not efficient.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  I think we’re in this mess because people who don’t understand how to operate organizations, departments, and government systems are treating these like servers in a closet that can be turned off and back on again.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  Doesn’t work like that.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • lunarboy

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 4:01 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    This cannot possibly be a good faith argument. Real world is full irreversible cause to effect. This isn't some tech company running an A/B experiment. Let's cut healthcare, oops more people dead, but can't bring them back. Let's skip saving the environment, oops low sea level cities are flooded

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • andreygrehov

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 4:49 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        FDA has done it many times. Oops, people died, that drug can no longer be authorized.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • Braxton1980

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 4:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            What does turning it off represent in your example?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • kelnos

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 4:03 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      One of the programs they "turned off" was medical care provided to HIV-positive pregnant women in Africa to help ensure that HIV wasn't passed on to the child. There are now more children who have HIV, who didn't need to have HIV, but Musk thinks you can run a government like he runs Twitter, so here we are. I don't recall if that program got "turned on" again, but just the act of shutting it down for some period of time did significant harm.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      Saying this is all "irresponsible" is vastly understating how messed up this all is.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • JKCalhoun

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 3:51 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        Perhaps the fire department can start trying setting fire to homes — the ones that don't catch fire can become the new building code.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • jdauriemma

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 4:08 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            With enough ketamine and frog memes you might actually convince a certain senior advisor that's a good idea. Then in a few weeks some credulous Hacker News readers will be there to congratulate them!

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        • jdauriemma

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          today at 4:27 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          I work for a SaaS company and a frequent refrain is "the most important thing we sell is trust." I suspect our users would be extremely upset with us if one of our engineers decided to learn about our production systems by turning things off and seeing what breaks. If you insist on reducing the State Department or any other government function to a "complex system," then DOGE is doing exactly that - FAFO in prod on a service that's 239 years old and has nukes. It's beyond irresponsible.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                          • BurningFrog

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            today at 5:04 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I didn't say this is a great idea, only that this might be how DOGE operates.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            I don't think DOGE has the time or resources to seriously evaluate small programs like these when they're trying to overhaul the biggest organization in the world in 18 months.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            So they have to use crude simplified methods, or not do it at all.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            In that context, arguing about the detailed merits of US embassy air quality data is not very relevant.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • nitwit005

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 4:34 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              When the goal is efficiency, you generally don't want to pick the most expensive possible way of doing things.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • Braxton1980

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 4:56 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                Would you do this with a prod deployment?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                This also isn't some eshop, it's the US government

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                            • sitkack

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              today at 3:43 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              1984 was a manual.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                              • declan_roberts

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                today at 3:39 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                I think this is a good place for a public/private partnership.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                The govt installs and collects the sensors around the world and makes it available to private companies who contractually provide a suitable and free API.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                That sounds like a decent enough division of labor. We can even give a private company a tax credit for providing the API.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                  • kelnos

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    today at 4:05 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Or we can just keep using the system that's already there and already works, rather than tearing it down and funneling money into some company run by a buddy of Trump or Musk to build it again, with likely worse reliability and fewer features, and charge people for access to it.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    Because of course they're going to charge for it. Free API? Right.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • the_sleaze_

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 3:41 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      I'll set up a server tonight.

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      • mola

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        today at 6:30 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        So the people pay for the system, then pay again for access to data?

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                        While some oligarch turns a profit.. So efficient

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    • andreygrehov

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      today at 4:38 AM

                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                      DOGE is sharing all the data. Is there a specific line item that addresses the defunding of air quality monitoring? I couldn’t find one. If I were anti-DOGE, I could say, “Hey, people love air quality. Let’s stop sharing the air quality data and blame it on Musk! That’ll make people really angry at him.”